GOLFMK8
GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV

Nytrogen in the Tires

Jester_Fu

My Name is Angela.
Location
Swidneh
Car(s)
Daytona Grey TT RS
^Exactly. The trend came about from smaller race teams using to keep heat lower in used slicks, extending their life and meaning they spent less money on tyres. Now, it seems to be status quo. The reason? As already said in this thread, Nitrogen does not expand when heated as rapidly as air does. This means that tyre pressure vary less - WHEN UNDER HEAVY LOAD. On the race track, this makes it much much easier to tune the pressure in your tyres to a track, suspension setup, driving style, weather etc. without the concern of tyre pressure varying during laps. More consistent pressure = more consistent handling = more consistent lap times = better chance of winning a race.

The reality on public roads is your tyres will never be subject to the kinds of extreme forces they are on the race track... negating any value in using Nitrogen for street use.

On the road, Nitrogen has little if any value. There are plenty of people who have made their own opinion based on getting their own facts (not reading forums or downloading consumer surveys) that tyres seem to last longer. I think the "lower need to top up pressure" is down to a better quality valve being used with nitrogen (included in the $5) - when i removed nitrogen from my last car as i was no longer tracking it but kept the nitrogen valves, i rarely had to put air in. However, from my own research and that of other people in the motorsport community, Nitrogen offers a clear advantage when used on the track. The disadvantage with nitrogen as a small tema is that you can't tweak pressures as easily during the day unless you take your own nitrogen cylinder with you.

I'd like to see something from Dingah and Maverick based on either their own track use of nitrogen or > 3 internet related articles saying that nitrogen has no value when used in motorsport. I would be interested to hear something contradicting my own personal experience, based on measuring pressure variation at two track days on my own car between nitrogen and air - cold measurements before each session, hot measurements at the end of each session. No more than 40minutes break between each session. Greatest variation over a day using air - 12PSI. Greatest variation over a day using Nitrogen - 2PSI. Yup, clearly no value there.
 

datracer99

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Sydney
:threadjacked:
Spot on - fully agree.
Rather like the fellow that purchases a re-flashed software, only loads the economy program (!?) and then reports discernable improvements in performance and economy. The formula is I believe is:
dollars invested = discernable improvement in performance (regardless):bellyroll: .

Dingah

Hope you're not having a shot at me there - AFAIK i am the only one who has not yet installed the fast road map, and I haven't reported any improvement in fuel economy.

Further impressions on the ST3

Having the ST3 now for about a week - i still have it on the Economy map.
I can't say that I can actually pick any improvement in economy
:readthethread:

If you can't discern a power gain of 10% and torque gain of 16% then perhaps your butt-meter needs re-calibration.

And if you read the thread properly you would know that I plan on installing the the fast road map when there is a proper fix for the flash counter. (Regardless of chippedUKs post today, I want to see the flash counter doing the right thing through VCDS when I flash it next)
 

Maverick

Go Kart Champion
Location
Brisbane
I'd like to see something from Dingah and Maverick based on either their own track use of nitrogen or > 3 internet related articles saying that nitrogen has no value when used in motorsport.

My comments and indeed the links I posted are about Nitrogen being a complete waste on time for ROAD use. I have no doubts about the benefits for track use and I wasn't disputing what you said.

(I clarified my last post to make this clear)
 
Last edited:

REDMKVGTI

Ready to race!
Location
Melbourne
Car(s)
MKV GTI
Unless your middle name is the Stig, I wouldn't bother.

Some say he drives so fast his tyres have to be inflated with nitrogen or they explode, but we just call him the Stig.
 

CiaranGTI

Schwam, Doo, Doo and heif
yeah, nitrogen is up there with the energy polarizer in terms of usefulness.
 

brisgti

Ready to race!
Location
Bris
^Exactly. The trend came about from smaller race teams using to keep heat lower in used slicks, extending their life and meaning they spent less money on tyres. Now, it seems to be status quo. The reason? As already said in this thread, Nitrogen does not expand when heated as rapidly as air does. This means that tyre pressure vary less - WHEN UNDER HEAVY LOAD. On the race track, this makes it much much easier to tune the pressure in your tyres to a track, suspension setup, driving style, weather etc. without the concern of tyre pressure varying during laps. More consistent pressure = more consistent handling = more consistent lap times = better chance of winning a race.

The reality on public roads is your tyres will never be subject to the kinds of extreme forces they are on the race track... negating any value in using Nitrogen for street use.

On the road, Nitrogen has little if any value. There are plenty of people who have made their own opinion based on getting their own facts (not reading forums or downloading consumer surveys) that tyres seem to last longer. I think the "lower need to top up pressure" is down to a better quality valve being used with nitrogen (included in the $5) - when i removed nitrogen from my last car as i was no longer tracking it but kept the nitrogen valves, i rarely had to put air in. However, from my own research and that of other people in the motorsport community, Nitrogen offers a clear advantage when used on the track. The disadvantage with nitrogen as a small tema is that you can't tweak pressures as easily during the day unless you take your own nitrogen cylinder with you.

I'd like to see something from Dingah and Maverick based on either their own track use of nitrogen or > 3 internet related articles saying that nitrogen has no value when used in motorsport. I would be interested to hear something contradicting my own personal experience, based on measuring pressure variation at two track days on my own car between nitrogen and air - cold measurements before each session, hot measurements at the end of each session. No more than 40minutes break between each session. Greatest variation over a day using air - 12PSI. Greatest variation over a day using Nitrogen - 2PSI. Yup, clearly no value there.

by your readings, there is a 600% difference in expansion between air and oxygen. if we assume that your nitrogen tyres were 100% nitrogen and your regular ones 78% nitrogen, that means 10 psi of that difference is almost entirely explained by the expansion of the 21% of oxygen in your normal tyres. that's about 69,000N/m^2. this is not possible because the molar volumes of o2 and n2 respectively are 17.36 cm^3 and 13.54 cm^3. this means nitrogen is 22% more dense than oxygen. if you have a tyre filled only with o2 and apply the same heat as to the same tyre filled with n2, the o2 tyre will expand 22% more than the n2 tyre. this means if your n2 tyre had a pressure variation of 2psi, the o2 only tyre would have a variation of 2.44psi under the same conditions. this means the difference you saw cannot be explained by the gases in your tyres according to the laws of physics.

drag racing tyres are much more elastic and operate at much hotter temperatures than normal tyres. this means that a 22% pressure difference at x temperature in a drag tyre will result in actual physical differences in the tyre and a real, noticeable performance difference. when you consider that drag tyres go through heating/cooling cycles, of course you'd use n2. the reason being n2 expansion will be consistent and predictable, as opposed to air which will vary according to the partial pressures of the constituent gases. there are denser gases than n2, n2 is just the cheapest and easiest to get. any racer using tyres anything like street tyres at anything near normal loads (this includes tracking) will see no difference in n2 vs air, all other factors being equal.

personal experience may tell people one thing but the laws of physics say different.
 
Last edited:

zogger

Ready to race!
Location
Brisbane
Anyway, got it done... went to a place that extracts the air out of the tires (not just letting out the valves) and regulates/tests the % of nitrogen in the tyres.. 98% nitrogen confirmed in all tires.

I just see what happens.. for good or bad it cost me the equivalent of 4 beers, so cant be all bad haha. But if it gives my tires a little more life however marginal, I say thats worth it.

Still its good to get everyones point of view and appreciate the feedback.
 

Jester_Fu

My Name is Angela.
Location
Swidneh
Car(s)
Daytona Grey TT RS
brisgti - stop discrediting the laws of phyics by applying your own slant on them, please.

The only way i can get numbers even remotely similar to yours is by applying the "Ideal Gas Law" (PV=nRT). Any second year Physics or Mechanical Engineering student at uni will quickly point out the flaws in your argument from this point. You might like to consider that air can not be represented by the properties of it's individual components (the primary reason the ideal gas law can not be applied in this instance)... which, IMO, invalidates your opinion that oxygen is the dominant factor in determining the pressure variation of air under heat.

You may also like to consider the effects humidity can have on pressure variations within tyres. This is another property N2 overcomes as, typically, it has been dried and processed prior to be compressed and supplied to the end user. The air used to inflate your tyres does not go through a dryer or any form of particulate filtration. From a process i am currently undergoing to ensure quality air supply within an automation process, i can assure you that the quality of air you are forcing into your street tyres is not of a level to start applying any form of idealised representation.

There may be a 600% difference between air and N2 from my original post, but at the pressures i was running 12PSI accounted for appromxiately 30% of the initial tyre pressure. Your second paragraph seems to support the benefits i had suggested fo N2 in track use. While drag tyres may be subject to extreme variations, race tyres are also subject to a more consistent long term heat load. This heat load increases, typically, during a session. Increasing heat = increasing pressure. By controlling the rate and degree of increase you achieve a more predictable and consistent tyre setup allowing you to concentrate on driving (not compensating for tyres) and suspension setup. I'm not sure of the validity of arguing tyre pressures do not have an impact on motorsport other than drag racing. Care to share which law of physics only applies to drag tyres?
 

brisgti

Ready to race!
Location
Bris
i assumed different tyres filled with only o2 and n2, avoiding the need to work out partial pressures. in such a situation ideal gas laws can apply. given that your normal tyre was 80% filled with n2, i'm pointing out that your difference cannot be explained by the remaining 20% of o2 because of the behaviour of each gas. even if you worked out the partial pressures in an air filled tyre you would still be unable to explain the pressure difference only as a result of the behaviour of the different gases.

what i'm telling you is that even if you had two (2) identical tyres, one filled with only o2 and the other only filled with n2, you wouldn't get that pressure difference if you heated them the same amount. it should then be obvious that even factoring partial pressures, which vary by the molar volume of each gas, you still won't get that pressure difference.

can you explain what happened? where did the 30% more or less gas come from or go to when you used air? because it CANNOT be due to the thermal properties of ANY gases in compressed air, unless you filled your tyres with steam.

i also stated that usage of n2 in racing is only worth it for racers who need to know exactly how their tire pressure will vary with temperature. because your car is running street legal tyres, you are not one of them. street legal tyres are street legal because they won't deform beyond small tolerances under even applications like the occasional track day. if you were running funky slicks or drag tyres that deform by several hundred percent and run at 100+ degrees then yes, it would make sense to use n2. hell, you can use n2 anyway, just don't go arguing there's a scientific basis for it because there isn't.
 

Dingah

Crusty Aviator
Location
Canberra Airport
Car(s)
Audi SQ5
Does anyone REALLY care?
Driving a GTI you will never notice the difference and if your car does, trust me it will keep it a secret.

Dingah
 

Wipperman

Ready to race!
Location
`
Car(s)
`
if i dont keep finishing in the top 3 on the way to work, i'm gunna lose my sponsors!

nitro, woo hoo. :headbang:
 

DRMAT

Go Kart Champion
Location
Melbourne
Car(s)
Black Magic MkV Golf
Just FYI Jester... if you got a 12psi difference with air in the tyres then your pressures were seriously wrong to begin with man! They should only be going up by about 4psi when they are set right. Smooth driving and the temp of the day can make a huge difference as well.
 

wokwon

Bork! Bork! Bork!
Location
Melbourne
Car(s)
MY07 Jetta
Nitrogen is good in Guinness (the reason the bubbles are smaller in Guinness is that they are mostly nitrogen which is less soluble than carbon dioxide).
 
Top