Nytrogen in the Tires

[Wipperman]

If someone wants to be Dr Bunsen Honeydew....

I will be Beaker!

beep beep beep beep beep beep

 

[Wipperman]

I found this when I was buying tyres.

It might be interest to someone.

 

[Jester_Fu]

or it could just be that you exaggerated and when it was pointed out to you, you wouldn't accept it so you kept edging out on that limb, pursued by someone who doesn't know how to let go of an argument... there is no way an air filled tyre can rise in pressure 6 times more than a tyre with just nitrogen in it only as a result of heating. the problem you have is that even if we account for you doing something different on each run, the temp change required to cause such a change in pressure is such that your tyres would likely have melted. this is because, for our purposes, pressure approximately varies with temperature.

Look, is there any point continuing this? You're going to keep flogging the ideal gas law. I'm happy if that's the level of your understanding... but if you want to have an open discussion you're going to need to move on and stop basing counter arguements purely on an idealised representation. If you can't do that, then we can't have a discussion.

i'm done here. if you'd like to continue, let's get someone to act as a second and we'll each put up $10. all you have to do to collect is explain, using established physics, how a street legal tyre filled with air can be heated such as to give a pressure change 600% greater than the same tyre filled with n2, initial pressures and change in temperature being equal in both tyres. tell you what, you can even apply twice as much heat to either tyre if you want.

:lol: Sure, i'm happy to wager $10.

I'll start with your 600% greater statement - 2 * 6 is 12, yes. 2 + 12 is 14. That is what equates to 600% GREATER than 2PSI. I think what you were trying to say is that there is a 600% increase... but again... that's not true. To rationally have this argument, you'd have needed to ask a few more questions, including "what was the start tyre pressure". Your claim that there's a 600% increase is incorrect. If you want to start claiming, again, that there's a 600% differential, i'll ask you to go do some math study. 12 - 2 = 10. This is a 5 times differential, not 6. But... putting aside symantics and poor application of math's, we'll move along. Happy with that?

Let's lay out the 'parameters' which you should have been asking for from the beginning:

Vehicle
------------
Peugeot 206GTi180, 1150kg's GVM, FWD
Pirelli PZero Nero's, 205/40R17

Road
---------
Wakefield Park, 2006 (pre resurface)

Air in Tyres, Feb 2006
------------
Ambient Temp = 36deg C.
RH = 56%
Tyre temp = Unknown, too hot to hold my hand on (over 65deg C), did show some signs of serious load/heat related damage (chunks of rubber missing)
Track Surface Temp = Unknown
Target tyre pressure (hot) = 38PSI front and 36 PSI rear
Starting Tyre Pressure (cold); front = 26PSI, rear = 30PSI
Pressure difference = 46.15% for worst case (fronts)

Nitrogen in Tyres, April 2006
-----------------------------
Ambient Temp = 28deg C.
RH = 62%
Tyre temp = Unknown, Cooler than air as i could hold my hand on them
Track Surface Temp = Unknown
Target tyre pressure (hot) = 38PSI front and 36PSI rear
Starting Tyre Pressure (cold); front = 36PSI, rear = 35PSI
Pressure difference = 5.56% for worst case (front)

These are the measurements i took. It's not entirely scientific, so we'll have to agree on some of the other numbers if you want this to go further.

So, do you want to have our wang-off/piss-tols at dawn here in the main forum, or happy to do this via PM so Guy can have his stage back?

 

[zogger]

tell ya what, even if I didnt put Nitrogen into my tyres I am learning a great deal... now what if I put a Psychologist and a Psychatrist in my passenger seat.. would I get any benefits? :happyanim:

 

[-mission-]

Settle Fu petal, someone's obviously a biatch touchy. :wink: Keep digging Scotty. Still running spectrum analysis on your oil every 5000kms :lol:

 

[rennenhaus.com.au]

you know what this thread is starting to remind me of?

it reminds me of this


:bellyroll:

 

[Jester_Fu]

Settle Fu petal, someone's obviously a biatch touchy. :wink: Keep digging Scotty. Still running spectrum analysis on your oil every 5000kms :lol:

See, that's what i love about you, Guy. You can be as thick as two short planks... but still manage to chuckle at yourself :thumbsup:

 

[-mission-]

See, that's what i love about you, Guy. You can be as thick as two short planks... but still manage to chuckle at yourself :thumbsup:

No worries Scott, your "friends" from other forums/lists still get to have laugh at you here. :wink:

 

[Jester_Fu]

Oh, hows that dutch guy you all worship going? You all still updating your ECU's with a CD through your car CD player? :lol: Come to think of it - how backward is VW that you need VAG-COM? Surely if all 206's can be updated by the in dash factory CD you'd think VW not only have diagnostics by the climate... but give you full control over your fuel map by the MFD. Stupid germans...

 

[brisgti]

I'll start with your 600% greater statement - 2 * 6 is 12, yes. 2 + 12 is 14. That is what equates to 600% GREATER than 2PSI. I think what you were trying to say is that there is a 600% increase... but again... that's not true.

damn right it isn't true, because that wasn't what i said.

To rationally have this argument, you'd have needed to ask a few more questions, including "what was the start tyre pressure". Your claim that there's a 600% increase is incorrect. If you want to start claiming, again, that there's a 600% differential, i'll ask you to go do some math study. 12 - 2 = 10. This is a 5 times differential, not 6. But... putting aside symantics and poor application of math's, we'll move along. Happy with that?

except i didn't say that, you should try reading the posts before developing your devastating counter-argument. you said one tyre changed by 2 psi, and another changed by 12 psi. (12/2)*100 = 600%. one tyre VARIED six times more than the other. you know the word, VARIATION, the magnitude of a change? i thought you were an engineer. wow, you know what. just never mind. i'll give you $10 just so long as you never work on anything my life might depend on.

i won't even bother with how your own figures boil down to, 'my tyres were really hot and the pressure increased a lot. another time, they were cool and the pressure didn't increase as much. oh, it's totally because i had nitrogen in them, because it magically cools my tyres.' WTF? i mean, come on... you can't be serious... no, actually you win. i must have forgotten about the first rule of arguing on the internet... i'm going to go find some nitrogen and fill my tyres up right now!

 

[Jester_Fu]

Sweet... you want my paypal so you can send me the $10 now?

Yep... the interwebz is SERIOUS business. :biggrin:

 

[brisgti]

i can't, i need it to pay for XXXxxtreme-NITRO-gen in my front tyres. since it seems to be the best place to put it on a fwd car. but if a robot breaks loose and takes over the world because of logic fault caused by a poor semantic word choice, i know it'll be your fault.

 

[Jester_Fu]

:lol: I keep them inside cages for just such an emergency. Never know when the little bastards will turn on you and try to spot weld your forehead to your arse cheek...

 

[Jethro41]

Hmm.. key reasons for using nitrogen are marketed as:

1. Temperature sensitivity reduction (lower water content means less pressure variation due to heat). Good for track days, less important for normal road use.

2. Permeability - due to the larger molecule size there is less pressure loss over time due to gas seeping through the tyre.

3. Less corrosion on the inside of the wheels. Lower water/impurity content means less nasties sitting inside the tyre.

Personally I use Nitrogen in my tyres, it costs about $3 if you get it done when you get new tyres fitted.

I check my pressures weekly (or more often depending on what I'm doing in the car - a long trip eg. Sydney/Brisbane return I'll check em daily). In the 6 months since I've had the new wheels on the car I have had any (measurable) variation in pressure.

Yep, all those reasons are true.

I've run Nitrogen in Gretel's tyres since the day I bought her (3 years ago) never had a top up...a much more comfortable ride over long distances (i.e. feels the same as when you left home)

Cost me $2 a corner...and the red caps look pretty good on Gretel (TR)

And not that I've ever needed a top up, but if I ever do, I go back to the place I got it and he does it for squat.

But each to their own I guess.....