GOLFMK8
GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV

Spring rate testing orgy

miamirice

Ready to race!
Location
Miami
Yes. I even feel the Mk.V chassis stiffness to be at it's limit with ~ 300 lbs and H&R bars.
I can hear some noises I don't like.

Sadly I don't know the S2000 that much. I just have read a suspension book with some
examples on a S2000. From what I remember the S2000 needs rel. high spring rates as
the suspension arm motion ratio is near 0.5. Can you confirm this?

Yes, I know the MK.V rear is also in the 0.6 area while the front being at almost 1. That's
the main reason why some like higher spring rates on rear on a GTI.


Motion ratio on S2000:

.82 front
.77 rear


The car stock is:

218 lbs front
290 lbs rear



A little odd for a rear wheel drive platform with 50/50 weight distribution. I sometime wonder if the very diabolical nature of the s2000 snap oversteer at the limit is a factor. The car can be like the air cooled 911 at its limit. Here is an old video of my first weeks owned the car at a track I know well. Skip to 1:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FUK4ZsRunA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
Last edited:

daigo

Oval Newbie
Location
Kuwana City, Mie Pref. JAPAN
Car(s)
Mkv GTI
Indeed it is much stiffer than the Mk.IV, but there are still limits. Of course not fixed ones.

Yes there are still limits...
From my curiosity, how can you guess if you want to use some particular rate of spring, then its better to attach the cage or not? Do you judge it from the thickness of the body panel used around the wheel housing?

I can image the vehicle without a cage is not stiff compared to caged one, so the body could not hold the load fully from the high spring rate and gives much stress to body.

Well, I am thinking of trying Boston's settings to see how it perform compared to my current setting. Maybe I can enjoy changing rates for many years from now.
 

daigo

Oval Newbie
Location
Kuwana City, Mie Pref. JAPAN
Car(s)
Mkv GTI
They do say that, but it's still spot welded. Honestly the chassis does feel much stiffer, the MKV is remarkably strong, but maybe by laser welded they mean laser spot welded? I have never seen any evidence if seam or even stitch welding anywhere on the unibody.

I donno maybe its lazer spotted, but I also hear lazer seam welded but not fully.

Next time you take a ride, it would be much softer than before.
 

miamirice

Ready to race!
Location
Miami
Yes there are still limits...
From my curiosity, how can you guess if you want to use some particular rate of spring, then its better to attach the cage or not? Do you judge it from the thickness of the body panel used around the wheel housing?

I can image the vehicle without a cage is not stiff compared to caged one, so the body could not hold the load fully from the high spring rate and gives much stress to body.

Well, I am thinking of trying Boston's settings to see how it perform compared to my current setting. Maybe I can enjoy changing rates for many years from now.


I would Contact APR or somebody who is racing the MKV, but from what the Bruce is saying, it's not a rigid chasis and I bet APR is seam welding the car when they prep it

You can't just make assumptions. In general, cut the top off a car and it has no hope of being structurally rigid,,but the s2000, boxster and f430 spyder all have great integrity. .
 
Last edited:

daigo

Oval Newbie
Location
Kuwana City, Mie Pref. JAPAN
Car(s)
Mkv GTI
I would Contact APR or somebody who is racing the MKV, but from what the Bruce is saying, it's not a rigid chasis and I bet APR is seam welding the car when they prep it.

Yea the race cars will increase welding points or seam the panels... wish I could do that.

I am currently using over 500lbs springs for both front and rear, with stock sway on front and H&R on rear. This may be a one of the approach for the track setting, but I want to learn other people knowledge and experience to find what is best for me. This topic is very interesting to learn both english and setting.
 

miamirice

Ready to race!
Location
Miami
Yea the race cars will increase welding points or seam the panels... wish I could do that.

I am currently using over 500lbs springs for both front and rear, with stock sway on front and H&R on rear. This may be a one of the approach for the track setting, but I want to learn other people knowledge and experience to find what is best for me. This topic is very interesting to learn both english and setting.

At this point, I think you are the best "test mule" on this forum. Would be very interested in your cars character vs. stock. Chasis flex is not the end of the world either. The 917 was famous for it. They pressurized the tubular frame and would check it with a tire gauge during pit to see if they had cracked a weld. :clap:
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
Motion ratio on S2000:

.82 front
.77 rear

The car stock is:

218 lbs front
290 lbs rear

Thank you. Then it isn't as critical as on the Mk.V rear or even on a BMW E30. :thumbsup:


ps:
great 917 story !! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


Yes there are still limits...
From my curiosity, how can you guess if you want to use some particular rate of spring, then its better to attach the cage or not? Do you judge it from the thickness of the body panel used around the wheel housing?

No scientifics of course. :wink:

Just a mixture of feel, inspiration and experience. I know that nobody with 250 lbs needs a cage.
I also know almost all the guys running KW Competition and the likes do have a full cage.

Guess they know why. Safety and FIA approval is just one point, chassis stiffness is another.


This topic is very interesting to learn both english and setting.

Same with me. :biggrin:
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
Wow, this topic is growing fast!

Anyway, in general I believe in going softer rather than harder with springs for tuning a car's handling. All things being equal, I truly believe the secret lies in better dampers. Given ideal track conditions, it will be much easier to just dial up the springs to make a car handle well, but this is to be expected because the car experiences much smaller geometry changes and the behaviour of the car is much more predictable. Depending on who you talk to, the car could be perceived as easier to drive or harder to drive because the more stiffly sprung setup will make the car always feel "on edge" and less forgiving, but gives sharp handling at the same time.

As far as VWs go, I began in my early days with driving on a setup with almost no suspension (riding on bump stop rubber 24/7), to a KW V2 coilover setup, to my current Koni FSDs, and I can unequivocally say that the Koni FSDs (albeit a relatively "tame" setup) are not only more comfortable and compliant, but also allows me to drive the car much faster 90% of the time with much more ease than the KW setup. I also come across various cars every week for evaluation purposes, which continues to help establish my shifting baseline of vehicle handling.

Several months ago, I had some indirect experience as a passenger in a McLaren MP4-12C through some high speed driving. This car has no traditional torsional swaybars, and has instead an intricately routed system of hydraulic lines interconnecting the four dampers that allows maximum compliance with the road while maintaining a flat, easy-to-control ride throughout. I am not sure about the spring rates, but I believe they are relatively soft as the driver purposely drove over various potholes and the car successfully remained essentially undisturbed, with only the suspension doing its job. There is a certain fluidity to the setup that makes the ride more comfortable than even our Mk5 stock, without any of the ride harshness experienced in many typical cars. I am sure the unique suspension setup is only part of the equation, but there are alot of great concepts from its setup that to directly draw upon- the most basic being the maximum independence of the inner and outer wheels and adaptive dampers that takes handling to another level. Through heavy braking, on-throttle acceleration, and combined high speed acceleration/cornering, the tires never once gave out. Truly breathtaking!





But I will say this - TheBruce is right. There is no absolute objectivity. Whichever setup the driver is most comfortable with going 10/10ths will be the "best" one, since the handling of our cars, as it presents itself to us, may not be its true behaviour due to our perceptions of the setup, our ability to exploit the car's handling at the limit, and lastly, our ability to adapt to any of the car's shortcomings.
 

miamirice

Ready to race!
Location
Miami
I wish it was as simple as bolting up better dampers. If you get into competition, that law of deminishing returns starts kicking in. Folks go to great lengths to shave tenths of a second. It's fascinating what can be done with alignment alone. My civic is at the point we are shipping the LCA's to Kingpin who makes multiple size spherical bearings just because of the variations in size of the hole during OEM manufacturing (tolerances). Any further alignment testing is pointless with rubber bushing No doubt suspension is highly complex and very fun. I have always enjoyed it as I am drawn to momentum cars. If you learn to drive fast in momentum cars it's much easier to drive high hp cars fast.

You are correct on the McLaren is pretty soft and rolly....and beautiful. The carbon tub with the doors open is very unique.

If you enjoy very tech suspension topics, check out the track forum at Honda-tech.com. There are many guys on there winning at auto-x, scca racing and even some famous Grand-Am drivers.
 

Bunnspeed

Salad Tosser
Location
MA
Car(s)
2008 GTI four door
This is my favorite current, active thread. Very informative, and makes me miss having a well-developed auto-x car (my old 98 Neon R/T, which had all the bolt-ons and a nicely adjustable suspension. That car was slow in a straight line but a rocket on an auto-x track since it could carry a ton of speed and could do lightning fast transitions. I learned a ton about suspension setup by adding parts one at a time (starting with a heavy rsb and eventually ending with springs, Koni yellows, poly bushings, heavy sways all around, etc.) I also learned a ton on the Motorsports section of neons.org, where there were some very passionate and knowledgable racers who liked to think waaaay outside the box trying some pretty radical setups. It's nice to have similarly detailed and informative threads here on golfmkv.com. Keep up the good work, guys.
 

miamirice

Ready to race!
Location
Miami
Outside the box! So true. Half the fun is watching folks work within a budget AND get creative. That is alive and well in chumpcar.

A bit of a thread jack....certainly not on much of a budget, but look at this project one of the guys is doing on Honda-tech..

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3076439
 

Autobahn

Autocross Champion
Location
Huntington Beach, CA
Car(s)
'18 Golf R
This goes back to the Ausie MKIV R that ran high rear spring rates that caused weird ABS issues and hit a wall.

VW's don't do well with high rear spring rates. I'm running 400lb rear and can barely compress the rear by hand (KW Clubsports). They like to sway, and do well with it.
 

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
This goes back to the Ausie MKIV R that ran high rear spring rates that caused weird ABS issues and hit a wall.

VW's don't do well with high rear spring rates. I'm running 400lb rear and can barely compress the rear by hand (KW Clubsports). They like to sway, and do well with it.

I've had similar issues running things too stiff in rear, the rear needs some ability to move or it gets twitchy and potentially unstable at high speed, not what you want. Keep front and rear in balance. Be especially careful with rear bushing upgrades, they can remove the factory dynamic toe safety net.
 
Top