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Israel is out of control (and so is Spiderman)

XGC75

Go Kart Champion
Location
sw mi
Maps have been drawn and re-drawn thousands of times throughout history. In this case, I have serious doubts that an entire culture will be wiped off the face of the earth.

(I like drawing parallels to the colonists' practices against the native Americans back in the 18th and 19th centuries because it invites humility and self-reflection into the mix)

The truth is that their culture won't be the same whether we settle on a two-state solution or wipe them off the map. Take a look at the Cheyenne tribe. They were given their reservations - sovereign states in and of themselves - and yet under the overpowering economic and societal influence of their neighbors (casinos, cigarettes and booze, anyone?), have been reduced to rich families of the same culture as the US. They have a history that they hold on to and strive to understand, but they've succumbed to modern conveniences over the "live off the land" mantra of their predecessors.

At least if Palestinians have a state, they can be represented in their government, they can have a say on the world stage, they'll be recognized throughout the middle east (which is important for the west) and history will look somewhat favorably on the situation. They'll be closer to their government rather than being ostracized (which would lead to more radicalism I'm sure).
 

thedude4bides

Go Kart Champion
Location
usa
It's certainly this guys plan. You've attempted to argue that it's ok because it can possibly happen.

Martin Niemoller finds this ironic

I have never said whether anything is OK or not. I am only saying that in order to pull off a genocide, as people are claiming is happening or is being planned in a proposal, it will take sheer genius. Amazing feats of political genius.
 

thedude4bides

Go Kart Champion
Location
usa
(I like drawing parallels to the colonists' practices against the native Americans back in the 18th and 19th centuries because it invites humility and self-reflection into the mix)

The truth is that their culture won't be the same whether we settle on a two-state solution or wipe them off the map. Take a look at the Cheyenne tribe. They were given their reservations - sovereign states in and of themselves - and yet under the overpowering economic and societal influence of their neighbors (casinos, cigarettes and booze, anyone?), have been reduced to rich families of the same culture as the US. They have a history that they hold on to and strive to understand, but they've succumbed to modern conveniences over the "live off the land" mantra of their predecessors.

At least if Palestinians have a state, they can be represented in their government, they can have a say on the world stage, they'll be recognized throughout the middle east (which is important for the west) and history will look somewhat favorably on the situation. They'll be closer to their government rather than being ostracized (which would lead to more radicalism I'm sure).
I agree completely. Well, except that I don't know that their culture won't be the same. Hard to make that claim.
 

razr390

Go Kart Champion
Location
Dat Forum, Doe
Saying what I would do if it were me does not imply it is OK. I am non-violent, I do not think any violence is OK. But if you keep flicking my ear and won't stop after I ask twice. BAM! There goes your front teeth.


O shit.

Thedude4ttacks
 

razr390

Go Kart Champion
Location
Dat Forum, Doe
From the BBC:

All Israeli troops are to be withdrawn to "defensive positions" outside of the Gaza Strip, the Israeli military says.

Lt-Col Peter Lerner told reporters Israeli forces would pull out before a 72-hour truce, due to start at 08:00 local time (05:00 GMT).

Israeli media reports had claimed the main aim of the conflict - to destroy militants' tunnels - had been achieved.

Gaza officials say the four-week conflict has killed 1,800 Palestinians. Some 67 Israelis have also died.
 

razr390

Go Kart Champion
Location
Dat Forum, Doe
From Foreign Policy Magazine:

Start with the facts: Whatever one thinks about Israel's overall actions vis-à-vis the Palestinians over the decades, Hamas has chosen to launch yet another illegal war by attacking Israeli citizens. No credible case in international law can be made for Hamas's rocket attacks on Tel Aviv and other Israeli cities. Hamas is in the position it is in now because, unlike the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank under Mahmoud Abbas, it remains a terrorist organization supported by Iran. Having gained some political power via the ballot box in 2006, it then launched a coup in 2007 to get all of the power in Gaza and keep it forever. Its refusal to recognize Israel and lay down its weapons (at the insistence of every legitimate actor in the world) makes it a pariah, an enemy of the peace. In short, it is an outlaw regime and organization.

Israel, on the other hand, is a democratic nation-state, a member of the United Nations (for all the good that does Israel), and a willing participant in countless efforts to establish peace. It not only has acceded to the Abbas government's political authority over the West Bank but it has even aided and supported it. In short, it is a member of the community of democratic states and a highly successful economic power even though it has to fight every day for its existence, surrounded as it is by hostile states and groups who would eliminate it from the map.

It should not be difficult for any U.S. administration to tell the good guys from the bad guys, nor to understand who our allies are and where our interests lie.

In fact, it is so clear to others that the Egyptian, Saudi, and Jordanian governments are in a de facto alliance with Israel in this current conflict, working to oppose Hamas and its supporter, Iran, even if they are not thrilled to be in this position. On the other side are Iran, Turkey, and the Qatari regime that has actively aided Hamas for years.

But tragically, the Obama administration's actions and assertions reveal it does not understand where U.S. interests lie or how to achieve them. Secretary Kerry and the president have repeated ad nauseam a non sequitur that amounts to the following: "Israel's civilians are being attacked by Hamas and Israel has a right to defend itself; therefore, both sides should show restraint and agree to a cease fire so that civilian lives can be saved." Some form of this mantra is repeated so often that we tend to overlook how meaningless it is because the assumptions that underlie the first clause make the last clause absurd.

Very interesting perspective. You can read the whole article here: http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/pos...ic_gaza_hurt_united_states_middle_east_israel
 

razr390

Go Kart Champion
Location
Dat Forum, Doe
From the same article:

We know from the context of this assertion that the administration, in its desire to end the killing, is acknowledging that Israel did not start the fight and that Hamas's actions are war crimes (no proper casus belli, targeting Israeli civilians and using Gazan civilians as shields). But by the end of the assertion the administration is treating both combatants as equally to blame for the war generally and for the deaths of civilians specifically, as though they each have to stop doing a bad thing and start doing a good thing so that the right state of affairs can be produced. But the right state of affairs the United States should seek is not for Hamas yet again to get away with an attack on Israeli civilians and to create conditions for Palestinian civilians to be killed. The right state of affairs is that Hamas is punished to the point of being militarily neutered, Israeli civilians are no longer threatened by tunnels and rockets, and Palestinian civilians are no longer human shields for Hamas. And that state of affairs is not achieved by the administration's call for a ceasefire, which is simply a punt. And we've had too many of those over the decades.

The Obama administration is wrong; the world needs a leader who pursues peace by supporting the good guys and defeating, or at least vexing, the bad guys. It does not need policies and diplomacy that amount to a boon for Iran and other U.S. enemies while discouraging friends and harming our alliances.
 
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