Ukraine: WAR Huh - What Is It Good For Absorootly Nothing

[Daks]

So true.

The concentration camps, the medical experiments and so forth weren't war crimes, they were crimes against humanity - a very subtle, but important distinction.

Was the totality of WWII worse? It was far worse. Over the long run, the war crimes were most likely also worse (from what has happened to date), but the intentional targeting of civilian right out of the gate didn't happen in WWII.

Putin is also committing crimes against the Russian people and military.

I agree with you on that distinction. The terminology escaped me.

Thank you for taking the high ground and not digging into this subject much.

do we all agree that in the world stage, Russia has taken any nor holds any moral high ground?

I will agree with this. I think the response was too harsh. My thoughts are that the first move that they should have imposed was some sanctions of their own, like cutting the gas supply to the nato countries, or whatever. Not invading. Do they have a reason for retaliation, in my mind, absolutely they do. Was the response far too severe, in my mind, absolutely it was.

 

[Daks]

Yes. Moving on.

How a bout we discuss Russia’s apparent lack of air assets in the fight?

It's not like they don't have them.

I think that the media and people are too quick to make judgment that the Russian offensive is unsuccessful and that all that's happening is resistance by Ukraine. No. They are some of the best military strategists in the world and a highly militarized state. I feel that there is more at play here.

 

[cb1111]

From what I'm hearing, the air force is having some internal discussions. Also, they may be worried about some of the anti aircraft weaponry.

About ten years ago we had a discussion about US pilots shooting down a hijacked passenger plane and while all the training was in place, the question is if that pilot, looking at that passenger plane, seeing people sitting in that plane, could shoot it down.

Fact is - training help, but nobody knows until you are in that situation.

Here, the Russian pilots and leadership are asking themselves "do we really want to do this?"

 

[Daks]

Russian gas flows to Europe continue unchanged
Russian state gas company Gazprom is shipping natural gas to Europe via Ukraine in the same volume of 109.5 million cubic metres per day as on Friday, the state-owned RIA news agency cited Ukraine’s pipeline operator company as saying.

 

[Daks]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500136970193969154

 

[GTIfan99]

I agree with you on that distinction. The terminology escaped me.


I will agree with this. I think the response was too harsh. My thoughts are that the first move that they should have imposed was some sanctions of their own, like cutting the gas supply to the nato countries, or whatever. Not invading. Do they have a reason for retaliation, in my mind, absolutely they do. Was the response far too severe, in my mind, absolutely it was.

What would Russia sanction nato for? Allowing countries to freely apply for membership?

Why do countries want to join Nato? Is it maybe because Russia invades neighboring countries when it feels like it?

As much as I disagreed with the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, it's not like they were unprovoked. Iraq was just the continuation of the Gulf War, Saddam invaded a neighbor, lost, but continued to threaten the region and his people. Afghanistan 100% was knowingly allowing the terrorists that committed 9/11 to operate in their country. Again, I don't think it was necessary to invade either, but neither was unprovoked.

Ukraine choosing to ally with the west over Putin isn't provocation. Both Russia and US can park nuclear missile 12 miles off each other's coasts with their ballistic missile submarines at any time and there was zero plan to put nukes in Ukraine.

Putin has repeatedly and openly stated his desire to put the USSR back together, that's what this is all about. Period.

The mistake the west made was thinking that allowing Russia and China into the world economy would change them for the better and make them more democratic. What's actually happened is China and Russia have spread authoritarianism to the west.

 

[Corprin]

It's not like they don't have them.

I think that the media and people are too quick to make judgment that the Russian offensive is unsuccessful and that all that's happening is resistance by Ukraine. No. They are some of the best military strategists in the world and a highly militarized state. I feel that there is more at play here.

I am not denying that Russia has air assets and a ton of them. But I’m not seeing them used in wide-scale operations like the first day or so. I know they tried an air-assault, in daylight, on a heavily defended area and it didn’t bode well.

Either they are not as prolific as they say, or the Ukrainian air defense network is sufficiently intact.

 

[Daks]

What would Russia sanction nato for? Allowing countries to freely apply for membership?

Why do countries want to join Nato? Is it maybe because Russia invades neighboring countries when it feels like it?

As much as I disagreed with the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, it's not like they were unprovoked. Iraq was just the continuation of the Gulf War, Saddam invaded a neighbor, lost, but continued to threaten the region and his people. Afghanistan 100% was knowingly allowing the terrorists that committed 9/11 to operate in their country. Again, I don't think it was necessary to invade either, but neither was unprovoked.

Ukraine choosing to ally with the west over Putin isn't provocation. Both Russia and US can park nuclear missile 12 miles off each other's coasts with their ballistic missile submarines at any time and there was zero plan to put nukes in Ukraine.

Putin has repeatedly and openly stated his desire to put the USSR back together, that's what this is all about. Period.

The mistake the west made was thinking that allowing Russia and China into the world economy would change them for the better and make them more democratic. What's actually happened is China and Russia have spread authoritarianism to the west.

Doesn't work that way. 1990 Nato states to Jelcin that they won't spread further east. 2022 - significant spread east. Pretend Canada was part of an alliance with Russia. Would the US feel comfortable having Russias ally bordering to the north, the answer is no. This is the way geo politics work. Much like in everything in life, size and power matters. Was Russia provoked, in my view, yes, was their response too harsh, again, yes.

I am not denying that Russia has air assets and a ton of them. But I’m not seeing them used in wide-scale operations like the first day or so. I know they tried an air-assault, in daylight, on a heavily defended area and it didn’t bode well.

Either they are not as prolific as they say, or the Ukrainian air defense network is sufficiently intact.

Maybe a bit of both?

What's your thought on that 60km convoy that hasn't moved in how long now? I think if they had logistics issues, that would have been solved by now. I think something else is at play.

 

[oddspyke]

What's your thought on that 60km convoy that hasn't moved in how long now? I think if they had logistics issues, that would have been solved by now. I think something else is at play.

The thought had occurred to me that they were intentionally setting up a "sitting duck" situation to bait NATO or some other third party into getting involved.

 

[Daks]

 

[MeltedSolid]

So true.

The concentration camps, the medical experiments and so forth weren't war crimes, they were crimes against humanity - a very subtle, but important distinction.

Was the totality of WWII worse? It was far worse. Over the long run, the war crimes were most likely also worse (from what has happened to date), but the intentional targeting of civilian right out of the gate didn't happen in WWII.

Putin is also committing crimes against the Russian people and military.

Remember that the targeting of weapons has improved dramatically.

During WWII, most weapons were aimed by keeping your fingers crossed that they hit the intended target - today, we can put a round through a window from many miles away.

While Russian weaponry isn't nearly as accurate as ours, they still know when they are targeting a hospital, school or residential building.

*US nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki whistling in the background*

Anyways. Fuck Putin, a war crime is a war crime, and the scale of war crimes shouldn't be compared. Whether Ukraine holds out or not, there's really no way Putin can be held accountable by the west aside from just leaving the sanctions in place until the Russian economy is dead. I think regardless of what happens, this is a huge mistake for Russia that is leading them to ruin, and the outcome of the war will only determine its speed. In a way this war is currently a fight for life for Putin that he put himself in.

Daks, I think you're mixing up provocation with a reason to do something. Russia has a list of very good reasons to invade Ukraine from their prospective, ranging from securing their oil dominance, to keeping it as a strategic military resource from NATO, etc... but in no way is that the same as provocation, as that would imply that Ukraine and the west was intentionally trying to get Russia to invade. If Canada was considering joining the Warsaw Pact, I would feel just as angry at the US if we decided to invade as I do at Russia right now.

 

[Unreal1]

If having neo-Nazis in the ranks is grounds for not being a member of NATO, then most nations should be removed, including the US.

The <1% of Ukraine’s forces do not dictate the stance or actions of the people, government, and remainder of the military.

We done now? Yes? Great, moving on.



Looking at just the lost Russian armor, that’s the equivalent of 5.5 companies of tanks, just shy of two regiments. Ooof

Are you really willing to make yourself sound as if you don't understand the difference between state-sanctioned Nazism and random members who hold Nazi ideology just to die on this hill...

What does defending a Nazi battalion do for you or your argument? We both agree Russia shouldn't have invaded, we don't have to defend Nazis to be against Russia.

 

[Luva]

I am not denying that Russia has air assets and a ton of them. But I’m not seeing them used in wide-scale operations like the first day or so. I know they tried an air-assault, in daylight, on a heavily defended area and it didn’t bode well.

Either they are not as prolific as they say, or the Ukrainian air defense network is sufficiently intact.

Every country and their mother probably has a Stinger type shoulder launch weapon system. But, I have to assume that Russia is holding back their air assets for some strategic reason.

Could it be simple military math? Who wants to lose a 30 million dollar fighter jet (or 3.7 billon ruble military aircraft) from a shoulder launched SAM that is probably less than $200k for the tube and warhead. Maybe the S-300 SAM system is doing all the heavy lifting for the Ukrainian air defense system. Fun to speculate, but I have no real insights to offer. Any know what Ukraine is working with?

 

[Corprin]

Are you really willing to make yourself sound as if you don't understand the difference between state-sanctioned Nazism and random members who hold Nazi ideology just to die on this hill...

What does defending a Nazi battalion do for you or your argument? We both agree Russia shouldn't have invaded, we don't have to defend Nazis to be against Russia.

 

[Corprin]

Every country and their mother probably has a Stinger type shoulder launch weapon system. But, I have to assume that Russia is holding back their air assets for some strategic reason.

Could it be simple military math? Who wants to lose a 30 million dollar fighter jet (or 3.7 billon ruble military aircraft) from a shoulder launched SAM that is probably less than $200k for the tube and warhead. Maybe the S-300 SAM system is doing all the heavy lifting for the Ukrainian air defense system. Fun to speculate, but I have no real insights to offer. Any know what Ukraine is working with?

Lots have MANPADS, but all are not equal. Current Stinger, for example, can detect and exclude chaff/flares and continue to target the aircraft.
I’m willing to bet Ukraine’s short/mid-range ADA and SAMs are very much up and running.

Russian ground attack is getting in low with unguided rockets and dumb bombs, and very susceptible to MANPADS. Where are their guided, smart, and stand-off weapons? Russia has always had limited ability to effectively employ CAS. While this hasn’t been a problem, Ukraine was set up to deal with them.

I’m also starting to wonder how much info they’ve pulled out of the equipment the farmers have taken, or simply used it to hack the Russian IADS.

There’s lots of other issues going on. Unsecured communication systems, and shit being abandoned with all manner of juicy intel inside.

As for that convoy, that is just pure dumb being stuck behind a nose of destroyed vehicles. I’ve seen our convoys go the wrong way and get stuck in bad places. Add a very brutal command structure that doesn’t value the boots on ground, and you have a recipe for cramming more and more into the chute. Ukraine has beat up the front of that convoy and it can’t go forward. The rest packed in behind trying to move forward. Honestly don’t believe it’s a trap, it’s just tactical ineptitude.