This could get ugly...

[kirk180]

I know this may be a touchy subject and all. But how can you ignore it? Those who know me closely know that there are only two types of television I watch. Those are the news and sports. Well since we are in the off topic thread section I thought I might as well talk about the headlines. I just finished watching Bill O'Reilly and of course the headlines involved Isreal and the Middle East. I've seen that Democrats (Hillary Clinton) and Republicans alike seem to be in favor of Isreals standpoint. There are also talks of anti terrorist networks in America trying to push for America to jump in the middle of it and to assist with taking on Syria and Iran. Well if you look on the map, it wouldn't be too hard. Iran is right east of Iraq and Syria just west. So were already right in the middle of them. Syria is in an "Isreal American sandwich" if you will. I'll leave my feeling out of this for now. The ovens always cooking over there. But there is some serious potential for things to get really crazy (and soon). Of course at the G8 Russia didn't approve of Isreals use of force and said they should keep it "balanced". But why would you want to balance a war that you can dominate. And you know President Bush's wing man (Tony Blair) will approve of whatever Bush says. Isreal says they are still in phase one of this operation and that the missile attacks will continue for weeks. Lebanon better drop south and gain control of their own country before Isreal does it for them. So is it already too late?

PLEASE TRY TO KEEP THIS THREAD CLEAN AND RESPECTFUL (MEANING WITHOUT RACISM):thumbsup:
Moderator, if it gets too crazy then by all means go ahead and lock the thread. But these people are my online Vdubb friends and I just want to chat about a serious subject and get their thoughts:thumbsup:

 

[DBCPerformance]

Kirk, this is a real serious heavy topic, hope we proceed respectfully and keep this thread moving in an examplary fashion.

What really concerns me is the poor Lebanese people. As a lot of people agree, Lebonan has control over their own lands, which the terrosit groups benefited over the last several years. For the longest time, Israel followed a policy of negotiating with terrorists in order to exhange hostages and free Israel citizens from the hands of terrorists until the recent events. What Israel understood, more they exchange and negotiate more people they would lose.

Our great nation does not negotiate with terrorists, but we are in a complete different position.

The big question is, is there hope for diplomacy? Yes and no. It is pretty too late, the shit has already started, and Israel will finish up their task, and in most cases it is their right to. There is still room for diplomacy in order to save innocent peoples lives, on either side.

I just hate to see both sides losing people, but in order to clean this thing, I guess this is the only way.

Hope everything turns back to normal, and terrorism ends...

 

[VdaWg]

In this day and age people have not learned to let go. Both sides at this moment should accept the losses and stop. If pushing and pulling is the route it will not end. Let nature sort this out. This is an adult war, the losers in all this will be the children. To be eutopian here, both sides should just man up, bite their tongues and take the losses. Let go, that's the hardest thing to do. My sincerest thoughts go out to all living beings suffering and not suffering on this planet of ours. Aren't people tired already...just paying bills gets me tired.:smile:

 

[DBCPerformance]

(Bonus points: do you know what the differences are between Sunni Islam and Shia Islam?)

I do, and i bet a lot of people dont. The Sunni side of Middle East including Saudis made a point very recently and asked Hizboullah to stop their terrorist practices against Israel, which was very unusual

 

[kirk180]

Yes the Sunni's did say that Scud. However, I don't find that unusual. Saudis have been on desireable terms with the US for some time now. And so have others as well. Hell, whole countries in the Middle East have said that to the "Hez" (U.A.E.=United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and recently Lebanon itself). Lebanon is just unfortunatly stuck in a very undesireable situation. I was over there the first time around, almost 15 years ago. Bonus points should not be awarded for this question. Everyone here has the internet and all they'll have to do is search it up. I know as much as the next person. International news is where I spend approx 2/3 of my television time at (at least). Plus the fact that I was over there keeps it kind of close to my heart. In other crazy news. Did you guys catch that simultaneusly during all of this the G8 convention was being held and there was finally agreement on how N. Korea should be handled? Of course not until the wording was softened up per the request of China and Russia . Anyways, supposedly the N. Korean govt gave the fastest refusal known to the UN when they basically said to stick it where the sun doesn't shine within something like 25 minutes of hearing the proposel. Hmm...

On the same token I'm sure the differences between Sunnis' and Shia's is more extensive then us westerners know. One could simply keep it at the split after the death of Muhammad. But I'm sure it goes much deeper since then. In ways that me not living there will never know.

 

[sledgod]

Interesting forum

The Israel/Palestinian/Hezbollah is an intractable problem. By that I mean its impossible to solve by any means of diplomacy. These battles have raged since the creation of Israel despite the odd occasion where the peace process has made progress (see Bill Clinton) then its cruelly sabotaged by the players themselves. From Zionism to Israel and the events post WW2 are fascinating and one of the most saddening and captivating stories of the modern world.

Historically the Israelis take zero shit and are one of the most sophisicated war machines, ever. To pick a fight with them is doing so in the knowledge that they will destroy you and anything that stands in their way.

Take a look at the Israeli kids writing messages on the rockets that they are slinging at Beirut - http://www.7days.ae/ or take a look at the Lebanese blogs you can access through http://www.gulfnews.com/home/index.html

In an age where media is the weapon of choice its useful to search other forms/perspectives of media in order to make your own opinion as balanced as you can. take a look at other english newspapers in the Middle East.I'm not criticising, just lecturing.

In any case the overwhelming sentiment here is that the USA have acted too late, again and allowed civilians to die in the eyes of the middle east where the USA has power over the Israelis which they failed to control.

The French PM has already visited the area (success unknown) and its only now that Condy Rice will arrive in the region and kick ass like only she can. Again the USA is taking an opinion poll plunge in the middle east. Shame. Again the bad people of the middle east (depending on how you view them) can all unite against the USA under a common cause. The USA really takes a good kicking in these circumstances but there is a danger in assuming all arabs/muslims are the same. Islam is peaceful by nature and each country here has a society very diverse in its range and expression of ideas as in Europe.

This time the people directly affected by the Israeli action are from the Middle East countries and Europe mostly, this is significant as its rarely the occurence and there will be many people/kids from these countries with a distinct dislike for the bombing of innocents because they saw it themselves. Israel have made no friends here with members of the public carrying british, german, french pssports etc. Ok, this is a contestable point...

Why did Israel react extremely. My opinion is that its partially down to the kidnappings (Israel will never abandon their own, ever!) but mostly due to the 'made in iran' markings on all Hezbollah's shiny new weapons. Could it be true that Israel are reacting to destroy Hezbollah and most of Lebanon before Iran become too powerful and threaten Israeli security and this brings us nicely back to the USA and their slow moving reactions.

Is this the herald of a new era in Middle Eastern politics. Iran versus the west. If its the case CNN will be busy.

NB - No fighting with me on any of the above please. if you disagree then no worries. In such a sensitive issue its not pleasant to turn this into a dog fight. I can also argue against every point above !!

 

[kirk180]

Very well said you two:thumbsup: Sledgod, I will say this. I think America is taking there time on purpose. I could be wrong. BUt it seems like President Bush doesn't mind this going on and it's just the kind of support against terrorism that he was looking for. Again, I too don't want this to turn into an ugly debate thread. I just don't see a sense of urgeny from us here in the US. Condy Rice even said it's too early for her to go over there. Nothing would get solved with things the way they are now. So it seems to me they will just let the bombings go for a while. The world knows President Bush wants to act on Iran. So therefore I think things will continue here for sometime.

On a side note. I don't remember if you remember me saying that I had been to Dubai, UAE before. I just seen it on your Avatar area and thought it was cool to get a viewpoint from over there.:thumbsup:

 

[sledgod]

Very well said you two:thumbsup: Sledgod, I will say this. I think America is taking there time on purpose. I could be wrong. BUt it seems like President Bush doesn't mind this going on and it's just the kind of support against terrorism that he was looking for. Again, I too don't want this to turn into an ugly debate thread. I just don't see a sense of urgeny from us here in the US. Condy Rice even said it's too early for her to go over there. Nothing would get solved with things the way they are now. So it seems to me they will just let the bombings go for a while. The world knows President Bush wants to act on Iran. So therefore I think things will continue here for sometime.

On a side note. I don't remember if you remember me saying that I had been to Dubai, UAE before. I just seen it on your Avatar area and thought it was cool to get a viewpoint from over there.:thumbsup:

Cool, very true, I agree with what you say, Condy Rice is an expert at kicking ass or to be more eloquent at timing her visits well and excersing a very strong authority and direction over certain governments in the middle east, usually the Oil producers so lets see how she gets on with Israel. I'm very interested to see what happens next, I get the feeling that Iran are 'up to something' quite a lot within the 'anti USA' spheres of influence, more than supplying the odd firework to Hezbollah. Considering I think USA does not have the resources avaialble to defeat Iran in a land invasion it will be an interesting test of the USA foreign policy.

Anyhow - yep I remember you saying you had been here before. I love being here and able to see the events from the other side of the fence. Having said that there are more brits and americans here than there are UAE nationals.

 

[kirk180]

Considering I think USA does not have the resources avaialble to defeat Iran in a land invasion it will be an interesting test of the USA foreign policy.

Really? Interesting viewpoint. Do you mean you think they simply don't have the land resources or that they don't have them there right now? Because I for one think that they have plenty of land resources to get such a job done. Perhaps they wont because they are in Iraq and things are busy enough as is. But I feel that we could invade them rather effectively. I just deleted a lot more things I was going to say but I will leave it at that. Also, where are you originally from?

 

[Wild Hare]

Israel has put up with dealing with terrorists on its land for too many years. After being in the Military and seeing first hand what and how far terrorists will go, there must be an end somewhere.

No matter how much you negotiate or try to with these evil people it will NEVER end.

Just as we (U.S.) are doing across the globe trying to free nations from terrorism... Israel has every right to seek and destroy. Terrorists have NO value for human life! And the Lebanonese need to get some balls and get these idiots and dirty harmful bastids out of there and lead a peaceful life.

Negotiating and trying to come to an aggreement/peaceful solution when Terrorists are in the equation can NEVER be permanent.

Unfortunately in order to achieve the objective, innocent lives will be taken... that sadly is the nasty part of War.

 

[HotLanta MKfizzle]

I look at it this way:

Take away weapons from Isreal - Jews get slaughtered
Take away weapons from Hezbollah - Peace and Tranquility in the region

:headbang:

 

[kirk180]

I look at it this way:

Take away weapons from Isreal - Jews get slaughtered
Take away weapons from Hezbollah - Peace and Tranquility in the region

:headbang:

Have you been watching The O'Reilly Show. I seen that one on there last night and thought it was pretty catchy. Sure enough, it was.:thumbsup:

Nice to see ya post. :respekt:

 

[sledgod]

Really? Interesting viewpoint. Do you mean you think they simply don't have the land resources or that they don't have them there right now? Because I for one think that they have plenty of land resources to get such a job done. Perhaps they wont because they are in Iraq and things are busy enough as is. But I feel that we could invade them rather effectively. I just deleted a lot more things I was going to say but I will leave it at that. Also, where are you originally from?

Now we have a good debate...

To be fair I don't know what the deployment capability of the US Army is, and if they have sufficient equipment/resource or will to do a land invasion. I think Saddam was an easy target whether USA knew that or not they got in there quite easily. Certainly the USA military machine is beyond compare and if you say that they are capable then I 100% agree. Their equipment and ability to strike was when rationalised as a cold hearted apparaisal was phenomally succesful in the 2nd Iraq invasion. I have seen A10s and Apaches on their way to work and wow! So i guess I am now arguing against myself and if I think about it then yes I think they could do it.

I think my point should have been that Iran is a different beast. Long porous borders, massive mountain ranges, a well trained army (way better than Saddams) and not to mention a land mass that is huge would mean more difficulty in execution. For sure they are so busy in iraq and Bush doesn't have unlimited funds.

Anyway, I'm british, from Scotland. I've been in the middle east for a long time and for a while I was working for a well known US company in iraq reconstruction. The same company accused of incompetence and getting nailed in the US at the moment, hence my interest in all things USA and Middle East.

 

[sledgod]

Israel has put up with dealing with terrorists on its land for too many years. After being in the Military and seeing first hand what and how far terrorists will go, there must be an end somewhere.

No matter how much you negotiate or try to with these evil people it will NEVER end.

Just as we (U.S.) are doing across the globe trying to free nations from terrorism... Israel has every right to seek and destroy. Terrorists have NO value for human life! And the Lebanonese need to get some balls and get these idiots and dirty harmful bastids out of there and lead a peaceful life.

Negotiating and trying to come to an aggreement/peaceful solution when Terrorists are in the equation can NEVER be permanent.

Unfortunately in order to achieve the objective, innocent lives will be taken... that sadly is the nasty part of War.

Interesting, I heard today that the US is keeping its embassy in Lebanon open in support of the Lebanese government who have been working with the US to as you put 'dirty harmful bastids' out of their country. Not bad, I'm impressed the US has followed its commitment to democracy. I guess it follows the thought of what you say above.

 

[HotLanta MKfizzle]

Have you been watching The O'Reilly Show. I seen that one on there last night and thought it was pretty catchy. Sure enough, it was.:thumbsup:

Nice to see ya post. :respekt:

My dad watches that show and made that comment to me last night, I stored it into my memory bank becuase it's cut-and-dry and get's to the point.