Pirelli ECU upgrades??

[Maverick]

thanks for the comments.

as mentioned in my original post

"Not wanting to start a war between people and their tuners, have people actually witnessed on their cars the claimed increase in output? As far as I've seen on some of the dyno threads, the outputs have been far below the claimed (taking into effect the crank vs wheel figures)"

A dyno is useless for what you're trying to do as it has too many variables and often they're done on dyno days so the cars are churned through with little regard to a quality dyno.

What matters more is a before and after dyno but most importantly how fast it feels afterwards.

Do you not think a custom ecu would be better than a off-the shelf quick instal unit (even if the generic R+D has been done)?

No, the amount of work that goes into creating a flash is not something that one guy who has done a few mercs and holdens can do. The fixed price he gave you is worthless and I doubt he could do anything half decent for that. He won't know how to run the engine safely, nor will he know about the fuel pump issues and how to get around that and at best you'll end up with a crap tune and at worst a destroyed engine.

It's ridiculous to think you can get a custom tune for that amount of money and the 30 day guarantee is useless. What happens when VW load an update on and he has to start again?

 

[Robby_jai]

C+C just reading from your responses it almost seems like your minds made up to go down the custom tune path.. and you are trying to find validation from the forum members....

if u have made up your mind go down that path.. and share with the forum members your experiences... obviously like you said... your angle is somewhat different... HOW i dunno...

it could go one of two ways. fantastically well..... or hideously wrong. What ever the result is share with us so that future members will have something to go on

 

[C+C]

A dyno is useless for what you're trying to do as it has too many variables and often they're done on dyno days so the cars are churned through with little regard to a quality dyno.

What matters more is a before and after dyno but most importantly how fast it feels afterwards.

Well thats my question. I am curious (and somewhat doubtful) that people could show the manufacturers claimed outputs on their tuned cars. I dont think many have done before and after dyno's in a controlled dyno scenario. So to base whether you go with a known tuner because of a 'claimed' benefit may not be the best thing. No doubt thou, benefits are made compared to stock, just by how much.......????????

The fixed price he gave you is worthless and I doubt he could do anything half decent for that. He won't know how to run the engine safely, nor will he know about the fuel pump issues and how to get around that and at best you'll end up with a crap tune and at worst a destroyed engine.

It's ridiculous to think you can get a custom tune for that amount of money and the 30 day guarantee is useless. What happens when VW load an update on and he has to start again?

He has stated it will take many days to perfect the tune, and is willing to invest his time into it (as he has with the mercs) to have a readily reproducible tune for the next gti/pirelli flash. What makes you think he would not apply the same logic and thoroughness with the pirelli as he did with $200,000 mercs?

I am not convinced yet that he is the best option for me, however I would not shot him down too fast without knowing his work.

 

[Robby_jai]

C+C you do know dyno results arent JUST a case of matching results from the manufacturer..

there are sooo many factors which will affect dyno readings..

everything from

- weather & temperature
- type of dyno's used (rolling vs wheel hub dyno)
- what your baseline power is originally ....... cars dont come from the manufacturer with the EXACT power figure as quoted... there will be some variances... some have higher power than quoted some may have less.
- fuel type used
- existing modifications..
- size of wheels/types of rubber used


will all affect dyno results. So if you expect a forum member to whip out their results and say heres my power output before and after and here's an exact match to the manufacturer's claim... aint gonna happen

(might i also add if you ran a dyno on your same car on different days you will actually get variances in power readings)

Well thats my question. I am curious (and somewhat doubtful) that people could show the manufacturers claimed outputs on their tuned cars. I dont think many have done before and after dyno's in a controlled dyno scenario. So to base whether you go with a known tuner because of a 'claimed' benefit may not be the best thing. No doubt thou, benefits are made compared to stock, just by how much.......????????




He has stated it will take many days to perfect the tune, and is willing to invest his time into it (as he has with the mercs) to have a readily reproducible tune for the next gti/pirelli flash. What makes you think he would not apply the same logic and thoroughness with the pirelli as he did with $200,000 mercs?

I am not convinced yet that he is the best option for me, however I would not shot him down too fast without knowing his work.

 

[Maverick]

Well thats my question. I am curious (and somewhat doubtful) that people could show the manufacturers claimed outputs on their tuned cars. I dont think many have done before and after dyno's in a controlled dyno scenario. So to base whether you go with a known tuner because of a 'claimed' benefit may not be the best thing. No doubt thou, benefits are made compared to stock, just by how much.......????????

Take a car from the dealer and get it dyno'd and you'll be way off what they claim but the truth is that what the manufacturer claims is what will actually be there.

If you're implying that everyone who has been flashed on the forum are fools that can't tell how much extra power they have than your're sadly mistaken. The major chipping companies spend a lot of time and money on R&D and their claims are believable.

I've had Dyno's performed before and after and the figures back up the manufacturer claims. Every dyno reads differently and unless you take one before you flash and than one after you flash you won't know for sure.

He has stated it will take many days to perfect the tune, and is willing to invest his time into it (as he has with the mercs) to have a readily reproducible tune for the next gti/pirelli flash. What makes you think he would not apply the same logic and thoroughness with the pirelli as he did with $200,000 mercs?

:lol:

You have no idea how complex the ECU is, from memory the MED9.1 has around 800 tables and anything up to 200 of these need to be altered for increased performance.

These changes have to take into account temperature ranges that the car will experience, a range of fuels, fuel pump variations and hundreds if not thousands of variables tested over thousands of hours before they're perfected and released by people that know these ECU's and engines back to front.

I am not convinced yet that he is the best option for me, however I would not shot him down too fast without knowing his work.

By all means go ahead and and let us know how you get on but we won't be surprised to hear that the engine has been destroyed.

 

[Maluko GTI]

There are a couple of guys in sydney that are able to unlock the vw/audi ecu and reprogram the ecu via dyno tune. I think i may know who you are talking about c+c he is recognised for a lot of turbo setups on the V8's and is known for good work.
As robby said it can go both ways though, but if he is willing to invest time in tuning your car, you may be better off as he will tune your car to the setup you have...

 

[Chugga44]

C + C.

i have pirelli with 2000km on it. after 1000km i took it to GIAC (exoticars north parramatta) and it COMPLETELY transformed the vehicle.

there is no way known to man that you could want any more out of the engine in terms of power delivery.

the big issues that now exist are (in order) wheel spin, wheel hop and torque steer.

if you are serious about improving the vehicle, you will be wanting to look at ways to help get the power to the road and also to get the car to stop!!!

thrusting 220+ kw through a gti is more than enough with the stock setup...until you have all your sways, links, suspension etc upgrades done, you really wont need more out of the engine setup.

hope that helps.

if you want to meet up and come for a drive, let me know,

cheers,

chug

 

[C+C]

All those factors about variations in dynos and in each car are very true, and because of that can be argued for reasons why not to go for a generic flash, yet something exactly for your own car. Its like buying a Hugo Boss shirt from europe, great quality with all the right measurements and fabric for someone close to your size, yet never as good as a bespoke shirt as the tailor down the road can make.

As i said I am not sure yet which way to go, just wanted people's (seemingly one sided) thoughts.

Maluko- i think your right- very well known in the V8 turbo arena. Although he doesn't unlock the ecu, just gathers data (AFR, flat spots etc) for fine tuning the flash

Chugga would be very keen to catch up

 

[Maverick]

All those factors about variations in dynos and in each car are very true, and because of that can be argued for reasons why not to go for a generic flash, yet something exactly for your own car. Its like buying a Hugo Boss shirt from europe, great quality with all the right measurements and fabric for someone close to your size, yet never as good as a bespoke shirt as the tailor down the road can make.

That analogy is pointless.

Every GTI that leaves the factory will have an engine that is exactly the same as every other engine and that produces power within a few percent of each other.

The companies spend a lot of time and money on R&D and there is no way your guy can send a few files off to a company in another country and send them some dyno results and achieve anything that is even going to be remotely near as good nor as reliable and nor one that will handle all temperatures and variations of fuel whilst putting out a decent amount of power.

You're completely under estimating the amount of work involved, the number of changes and the knowledge required to perform the work.

Even if they had local people to work directly on the car they would be spending weeks just learning. You're setting yourself up for a lot of problems and potentially a screwed ECU or engine.

As i said I am not sure yet which way to go, just wanted people's (seemingly one sided) thoughts.

You seem to have you mind made up, rather than insulting everyone for offering what is very sound advice just go ahead and get it done. You clearly wanted everyone to say that it was a great idea and to do it.

Maluko- i think your right- very well known in the V8 turbo arena. Although he doesn't unlock the ecu, just gathers data (AFR, flat spots etc) for fine tuning the flash

The stock tune is very good, you won't get much by messing around with AFR's and so on. He's going to have to change the boost (he won't know what is a safe level over time), the AFR (he won't know what temperatures are safe now how to read them properly, combat fuel starvation because of limitations of the stock fuel pump and many many more problems. He has no chance, sorry but that's how it is and it's ridiculous for you to think that someone who works on V8's will be able to achieve something worthwhile by doing some Dyno's and sending files overseas when it takes thousands of hours for professional companies to do the same when they have the cars in house and teams of staff that know the ECU and Engine inside out.

 

[C+C]

Easy Maverick, dont get too worked up. I haven't made my mind, my initial feeling was always with giac, just wanted to explore different options. As for insulting people, perhaps you ought to look at the tone of your words directed to me.....

Keep in mind, his flash it is based on powerchip, hardly a backyard company, despite not been well known for vw's. He is wanting to fine tune it to make more compatible and bespoke to my car, not making up a completely new flash. I guess it like any other of the 4 tuners having their technicians fine tune their own flash (or could be considered like different stages)

 

[tooraktrash]

To be honest I wouldn't touch it. As said before stick to the big names. Why trust a small australian company that would have a limited budget and experience on VAG cars over the larger tuners that specialise in VAG cars and have much larger R&D budgets and much more experience.

And the fact that they have a bluefin unit on their video clip is a worry, and they claim the stock GTI has 133kw when it comes with 147kw (unless they are refering to ATW).

Anyway it is your car and your call. I'm sure we all hope it works for you, nothing worse than seeing a fine car destroyed.

Keep us updated.

 

[Robby_jai]

no offense C+C

But rather than carrying on with this just go ahead and do it.. start a new thread and tell us how it goes. You spend quite a lot of time defending your concept of a custom tune which seems to me your set in your decisions. Why ask the forum members for advice and thoughts when you have preset notions, thoughts and beliefs about tuning cars.

Thats all i can really say.

If you cant read between the lines let me help state it clearly for you..

The very helpful forum members are trying to protect you

1. The potential pains and issues you may experience with an inexperienced VAG mechanic working on your car.
2. Save you the possible expenses of this "custom fixed price tune" when we all know the price doesnt include this and that your cost blows out......
3. Saves you the risk of voiding your warranty if the mechanic fucks up your ECU or any other bits and pieces associated with the car.
4. Saves you the risk of having this expert charging you a fortune for bugger all gains and then the mechanic coming up with some bullshit for the piss poor results.

You seem to underestimate the forum members quite a fair bit. Most of them are very smart and highly intelligent guys who have gone down the tuning path.. and probably far more experienced at it than you give them credit for.

I bet every one of them has their own tuning stories and experiences.. hence them wanting to share with you and guide you away from potential problems.

at the end of the day the pirelli is a wonderful car.. why take the risk and possibly fuck it up with a mechanic that has fuck all experiences with VW's ? let's not kid ourselves your mechanic knows fuck all about VW and the first car he touches is gonna end up with issues.

All those factors about variations in dynos and in each car are very true, and because of that can be argued for reasons why not to go for a generic flash, yet something exactly for your own car. Its like buying a Hugo Boss shirt from europe, great quality with all the right measurements and fabric for someone close to your size, yet never as good as a bespoke shirt as the tailor down the road can make.

As i said I am not sure yet which way to go, just wanted people's (seemingly one sided) thoughts.

Maluko- i think your right- very well known in the V8 turbo arena. Although he doesn't unlock the ecu, just gathers data (AFR, flat spots etc) for fine tuning the flash

Chugga would be very keen to catch up

 

[C+C]

no offense C+C

But rather than carrying on with this just go ahead and do it.. start a new thread and tell us how it goes. You spend quite a lot of time defending your concept of a custom tune which seems to me your set in your decisions. Why ask the forum members for advice and thoughts when you have preset notions, thoughts and beliefs about tuning cars.

My opinions are not based on my previous experience on tuning vw's (hence my post asking for peoples thoughts), yet I am also not biased in my opinion since I haven't spent $$$$ on one particular tuner and so feel obliged to talk it up and piss on others.

I am not defending my thoughts, yet enquiring as to why people go down one path, and not the other. If that seems to challenge you and your beliefs, then.......I thought thats what forum like this were all about.........

 

[tinto]

I'd be surprised if there wasn't an off the shelf tune from powerchips for the ed30.
Powerchips are uk based aren't they?

As others have said it could go nasty, but it could be phenomenal especially if you have a factory freak to begin with, which may actually have a better response from a custom tune ( admittedly a theory extracted from my arse

All due respect to the guys who chimed in, but I'm not sure where specifically you've been insulting... You've just been asking questions about a different approach and are getting hosed about it. You're not obliged to agree or tow the line and opt for something off the shelf.

I guess the off the shelf tunes on offer here give us some feeling of security knowing they've been developed with performance and longevity in mind.
Just not something that immediately springs to mind with a custom tune.

 

[Robby_jai]

im sorry C+C you'll be surprised most forum members if they arent happy with their products...will be first to stomp it into the dust and say so. regardless of dollars spent...

i for one have spent $$$ on ecu tunes and many other R32 owners think an ECU tune is a total and complete waste of time.

you also need to read very very carefully in all the responses here and NOT ONE single person has recommended you go with a specific brand over the others. They have recommended that you go with one of the big fours.... to reduce your risk of likelihood of something fucking up. very very different to your narrow minded view that every one is being biased and flogging the products they have invested money in.

you asked for advice.. you got your advice and like maverick say... if you were hoping for the back slaps and the chorus's of great idea you're sadly mistaken.

if you are set on it.. stop fucking around just do it and quit all the crap.

but i can guarantee you.. if things fuck up and this custom tuner of yours makes a total mess and voids warranty.. dont come on the forum asking for help.. you're just gonna get told off or a lot of told you so and a lot of sucked in, sniggers and smirks.

if you're prepared to take the risk go for it... in my line of profession.. you better have a good mitigation strategy for the risk you're going to take.

So you need to ask yourself.. what ARE YOU GOING TO DO.. if the tuner fucks up and voids your warranty... Do you have countless $$ for it not to be an issue/risk.

Will your mechanic compensate you if they fuck up your car ??? Will the mechanic pay for any future cost if he fucks up your car and voids your warranty.... i'd be asking those questions
you figure it out. you're a big boy.