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Experienced track upgrade advice

With brakes done, here's my $2000 budget list:

APR stage 1 - $600
Front and Rear sway bar - $500
DG Springs - $250
Ground control camber plates - $450

= $1800

Save the remaining $200 to put toward MK6 Bilstein B8 shocks.
 

Austin_hull

Für Die Liebe Des Autos
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
MK5 TR GTI REVO// +
Right, vagcom. Because when it goes wrong you want to know why, and not speculate why, and ask a bunch of silly questions on this forum.

Hmmmm....seems our little friend who was complaining about "155 views and only 3 replies, and two of them are sales pitches" should have received this advice....


OP, for $2g,

-Definitely get some sway bars. (Rear first)
-Honestly, I had an APR stage 2 tune, and I switched to Revo, and it blows APR away, personally. It's also cheaper.
-Good springs (Or coil-overs ($$$))
-Cat-less Downpipe (Ebay for ~$130)
-Intake (Nothing wrong with buying used for now! Check here or the Vortex)
-VAGCOM VAGCOM VAGCOM VAGCOM.

Your buddy wants power, but he should be more concerned about usable power 300+ hp is great....but if you don't have the suspension to be able handle it, or the brakes to stop it, he's wasting his time...Like everyone is saying, start small for now. Honestly, you could even hold off on the tune, he's going to have more fun with a track oriented suspension/brakes, because that will yield MUCH faster lap times, as well as increase his confidence as a driver. (Did I mention Vag-com is a good idea?)
 

GGray

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
In your original post you stated...
"in fact he is over-driving the suspension a bit because of it."

I can tell you 100% that adding MORE power is not the right direction. I have been instructing since 1996, in car and classroom... If he is over driving the car now you need suspension upgrades FIRST...

Over driving a car typically means he needs an instructor who can tell him to back down to the level of grip he has... Not add more power which will compound the over driving even more since you have added more speed, with the same amount of grip. Throwing tires on it will not improve the mechanical grip a huge amount. It helps but only so much.

Get some decent suspension upgrades on the car first... When you do that the next thing you will find is the brakes will need upgrading... He still will not need more power..

And find a better group do a track day with, a good instructor will never tell a student to add power first... Before adding suspension and brake upgrades.

A slower car is a momentum machine and takes a huge amount of skill to keep rolling at a good pace. I currently track my 325i touring which is about as fast as a slug unlike my M3 race car. You learn far more in a momentum car than a fast car as a novice or beginner irregardless of natural talent.

I started out in the late 80's racing a 2002 ITB car that was so slow if it got sideways it did nto have enough power to pull itself straight... I learned a TON in that car!
 

freshpots

r'zub n t'zug
Location
Canada
Car(s)
'22 GTI, '19 GT350R
In your original post you stated...
"in fact he is over-driving the suspension a bit because of it."

I can tell you 100% that adding MORE power is not the right direction. I have been instructing since 1996, in car and classroom... If he is over driving the car now you need suspension upgrades FIRST...

Over driving a car typically means he needs an instructor who can tell him to back down to the level of grip he has... Not add more power which will compound the over driving even more since you have added more speed, with the same amount of grip. Throwing tires on it will not improve the mechanical grip a huge amount. It helps but only so much.

Get some decent suspension upgrades on the car first... When you do that the next thing you will find is the brakes will need upgrading... He still will not need more power..

And find a better group do a track day with, a good instructor will never tell a student to add power first... Before adding suspension and brake upgrades.

A slower car is a momentum machine and takes a huge amount of skill to keep rolling at a good pace. I currently track my 325i touring which is about as fast as a slug unlike my M3 race car. You learn far more in a momentum car than a fast car as a novice or beginner irregardless of natural talent.

I started out in the late 80's racing a 2002 ITB car that was so slow if it got sideways it did nto have enough power to pull itself straight... I learned a TON in that car!

I hate you but you're absolutely right. :rolleyes:

Only thing is I think OP is doing this for a customer, so I think adding power is necessary :iono:.... 600 bucks for a mere ECU flash and 30hp is not so bad.. 1400 left for suspension mods is pretty good to start out I'd think.
 

miamirice

Ready to race!
Location
Miami
In your original post you stated...
"in fact he is over-driving the suspension a bit because of it."

I can tell you 100% that adding MORE power is not the right direction. I have been instructing since 1996, in car and classroom... If he is over driving the car now you need suspension upgrades FIRST...

Over driving a car typically means he needs an instructor who can tell him to back down to the level of grip he has... Not add more power which will compound the over driving even more since you have added more speed, with the same amount of grip. Throwing tires on it will not improve the mechanical grip a huge amount. It helps but only so much.

Get some decent suspension upgrades on the car first... When you do that the next thing you will find is the brakes will need upgrading... He still will not need more power..

And find a better group do a track day with, a good instructor will never tell a student to add power first... Before adding suspension and brake upgrades.

A slower car is a momentum machine and takes a huge amount of skill to keep rolling at a good pace. I currently track my 325i touring which is about as fast as a slug unlike my M3 race car. You learn far more in a momentum car than a fast car as a novice or beginner irregardless of natural talent.

I started out in the late 80's racing a 2002 ITB car that was so slow if it got sideways it did nto have enough power to pull itself straight... I learned a TON in that car!


:word: The fastest, most consistent RACERS around are the spec miata guys. And they have huge balls because they have no power and must not slow the car too much, this means fequently dropping a wheel on very fast corner exits, they do it all day long.

I too have been at this a little while and have never told anybody to chase power. My advice: don't spend a nickel on anything not purely SAFETY related until the driver can get inside of 5 seconds of the Time Trial record for the track and class. I thought this was a build for SCCA not a Xbox Forza wish list.
 

GGray

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
Yup.... Spec Miata= mobile chicane... Even in freaking chump car they are slow...

Our chump car is a momentum car. I regularly used the grass at certain tracks... VIR I found a few spots that you could really haul out of by putting two wheels off...

I do enjoy some power though!

But for OP tell your buddy to do suspension. Maybe a tune since it's like getting a new motor in a Mk V!

I am actually pretty impressed with how much power a MkV makes with just a tune..
 

KerryChadderton

New member
Location
Easton, MD
Car(s)
08 MKV GTI
Damn guys. Awesome!

I've been kicking it around all day. It's gospel all that has been said about suspension over power on the track. I know this and I'm writing him an e-mail to change the plan now. He'll listen.

My "new" plan:

Full tune up
Replace all fluids
Replace pump follower
Check DV to make sure it's the updated one

Bushings
Engine/trans mounts
Swaybars
Coilover/Shock/Strut setup

Need advice on the last 4 in that list. Should I start another thread?

I'm a virgin at VAGCOM. I'm used to Global OBDI, II and some proprietary stuff. You guys have consistently suggested a "Cable". What else?
 

GGray

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
Damn guys. Awesome!

I've been kicking it around all day. It's gospel all that has been said about suspension over power on the track. I know this and I'm writing him an e-mail to change the plan now. He'll listen.

My "new" plan:

Full tune up
Replace all fluids
Replace pump follower
Check DV to make sure it's the updated one

Bushings
Engine/trans mounts
Swaybars
Coilover/Shock/Strut setup

Need advice on the last 4 in that list. Should I start another thread?

I'm a virgin at VAGCOM. I'm used to Global OBDI, II and some proprietary stuff. You guys have consistently suggested a "Cable". What else?

With a 2k budget you need to be careful, 2k can get sucked up in the coilover kit alone...

We, I work at BimmerWorld, have been using and selling ISC coilovers, both for street and track use and they have been surprisingly good for their cost, 2 year warranty. we have had no damper failure in two years of selling them... I have tracked them heavily last year on an E36M3 and they were really good on track... They are Taiwan built. They are actually better than my Koni SA's on track.. I was fairly shocked at how nice they are..

We typically do not sell VW stuff but if you want to get a set I can get them to you fro $950.00+ shipping with custom spring rates, also can get all the Powerflex bushings (our sister company) I have the Powerflex bushings on my MK II Gti.

If you have a shop with all the business info I can set you up as a dealer ;o)
 

GGray

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia

barische

Go Kart Champion
Location
NJ
those are not real great for track use... Springs are not stiff enough.

just purchased a used kit, will let you know if the springs are stiff enough..

boston audi thinks that 513# front, and 570# rear will actually be very stiff and perfect on track..

and also comes with 60mm linear springs so u can put any spring u want depending if you got the dampers to control em... im about to send the rear shocks to bilstein for rebuild n reseal, they can also revalve em too..

RSS kit is the best bang for $ coilover for GTI that is out there right now..
 

GGray

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
just purchased a used kit, will let you know if the springs are stiff enough..

boston audi thinks that 513# front, and 570# rear will actually be very stiff and perfect on track..

and also comes with 60mm linear springs so u can put any spring u want depending if you got the dampers to control em... im about to send the rear shocks to bilstein for rebuild n reseal, they can also revalve em too..

RSS kit is the best bang for $ coilover for GTI that is out there right now..

I saw his thread on spring rates...

Well i would probably disagree.. The ISC stuff I would say is best bang per buck.. We have been selling them for two years with zero damper failure and a ton of use on track by customers... yes made in Taiwan but the quality is there and they do well on track. I drove an E36M3 I set up with them last year on track at Road Atlanta and Barber.. They were very good I was shocked how nice they felt on track... And I sell JRZ, and MCS dampers all the time...
 

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
With a 2k budget you need to be careful, 2k can get sucked up in the coilover kit alone...

We, I work at BimmerWorld, have been using and selling ISC coilovers, both for street and track use and they have been surprisingly good for their cost, 2 year warranty. we have had no damper failure in two years of selling them... I have tracked them heavily last year on an E36M3 and they were really good on track... They are Taiwan built. They are actually better than my Koni SA's on track.. I was fairly shocked at how nice they are..

We typically do not sell VW stuff but if you want to get a set I can get them to you fro $950.00+ shipping with custom spring rates, also can get all the Powerflex bushings (our sister company) I have the Powerflex bushings on my MK II Gti.

If you have a shop with all the business info I can set you up as a dealer ;o)

One has to wonder what the internal quality of the dampers is at that price, $950 with camber plates? Have you guys run these on a shock dyno? My GC/Koni setup on my M3 is getting a little tired feeling...

I think the RSS kit should work well on an otherwise stock GTI for DE days. If it's going to be turned into a real race car though I wouldn't presume to say what will or won't work, but instead ask someone who really races these cars what a good starting point is and gain more insight through testing. I would suggest much higher spring rates than my article for a dedicated track car. My GTI was doing dual duty. My M3 runs 650/600 springs, but will mostly see the track. That being said, I got great results in the GTI with softer springs and improved roll center through aftermarket spindles that lowered the ball joint attachment points - sport spindles. Totally illegal in probably any class you'd enter the car in, but lots of fun at DE's!

If the goal is club racing I'd start with what the OP has, a 944, or a BMW as there's a lot more support, knowledge and proven race parts out there on those cars, not to mention way more organizations that race those cars.
 

GGray

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
One has to wonder what the internal quality of the dampers is at that price, $950 with camber plates? Have you guys run these on a shock dyno? My GC/Koni setup on my M3 is getting a little tired feeling...

I think the RSS kit should work well on an otherwise stock GTI for DE days. If it's going to be turned into a real race car though I wouldn't presume to say what will or won't work, but instead ask someone who really races these cars what a good starting point is and gain more insight through testing. I would suggest much higher spring rates than my article for a dedicated track car. My GTI was doing dual duty. My M3 runs 650/600 springs, but will mostly see the track. That being said, I got great results in the GTI with softer springs and improved roll center through aftermarket spindles that lowered the ball joint attachment points - sport spindles. Totally illegal in probably any class you'd enter the car in, but lots of fun at DE's!

If the goal is club racing I'd start with what the OP has, a 944, or a BMW as there's a lot more support, knowledge and proven race parts out there on those cars, not to mention way more organizations that race those cars.

No need... ISC use to have dyno charts on their site. They work and the quality speaks for themselves based on selling them for two years with ZERO damper failure from build quality... The only failure we have seen is ONE from the rear damper not being set right and the shock continually bottoming out until it literally blew the seals.. And ISC warrantied it.... I am probably putting them on my E46 Touring since my Koni's are DOA in back and the ISC's actually feel better on track than any Koni set up I have been on. Feel wise they remind me of a JRZ... And I am somewhat of a snob with suspension bits...

The reason your Koni/GC set up is feeling tired is you are running spring rates that are about the limit of the Koni Damper, which kills the damper in short order from overworking it.. Not to mention the rates you are running are not correct, front to rear, either for a E36 track car, more suited for autocross. For track use with a Koni set up we recommend, front 450, rear 550 or 600, MAX rates you can run safely for track 550 front and 650-700 rear with all dampers set at max hard in back with the 700 pound springs and 3/4 with the 650 rate.

RSS vs ISC the ISC is a better damper... H&R tends to not use great dampers unless you get one of the really expensive units... Not to mention the ISC is compression and rebound adjustable via one knob.. Koni is just rebound only. You can adjust the ISC dampers and actually change the car's handling which you cannot do with a Koni or many other budget coil over kits like H&R, ST, KW, Koni basic kits etc..

Typically you have to be careful how much rate you run on any damper they are only engineered to run X rates and anything higher will wear the internals out fairly fast if you over spring them. As in 1-2 years of track use then they need replacing or a rebuild...

The OP already tracks his 944 he is asking about his CUSTOMERS GTI not his car. A 944 is not a cheap car to track they are more maintainace intensive than an E36 of any model. I worked in a Porsche shop years ago and an older 911 cost less to maintain than a 944. A clutch job on ANY 944 model is a labor nightmare...And a well set up E36 325is is far faster than a 944...

If you would like a ride in a car with ISC's set up properly I will be at Road Atlanta, and VIR a fair amount this year, probably with the E36M3 of my buddies with the ISC set up or my Wagonator. One ride is normally all it takes.. I have taken a few people out and they have all been impressed with the car....these are guys with track cars and instructors...

And maybe a Mk V with them...
 
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