WHITE JAMES: Suspension & Wheel Reviews

[C+C]

^^ Pirelli suspension - springs, dampers & sway bars - I believe are firmer than the regular GTI. .

do you have any solid information about this, like the difference in sway bar diameter/stiffness, etc?

will upgrades to a standard gti, such as sway bars and ALK, be suitable to the pirelli.

BTW WhiteJames, i would be interested in discussing the possibility for you to test drive my standard pirelli for your driving reviews, and talking about what setup is required. Let me know

 

[Blue.:R32]

Good thread.. thanks WJ.

I have a 07 R32. Looking at H&R sports spring and either koni yellow or bilstein b8. Any thought on this setup and difference in the shocks? From what I read so far, both shocks works well with the H&R with the bilsteins perhaps a bit more heavier damped. Daily driver, but I always placed 70% handling and 30% ride comfort.

 

[WhiteJames]

^Blue R32: You will find similar issues with the H&R Sports/Koni Sport (or Bilstein) as I did with the Eibach ProKit/Koni FSD. That is that the progressive rate strut spring is (i) Progressive, which give that floating hovercraft feeling coupled with over dampness at the slow speed compression rate bumps (remember I've upgraded to KW V3 now); (ii) Progressive rate H&R Sports Spring does not have as much spring rate as the perfectly matched coilover kits. If you're 70/30 on handling/ride - imo I'd look at the 2nd hand units that knieval is selling (Sachs Coilover that are retro-sleeved to cut down on noise) or apmictchell's 2nd hand KW V3 - both selling for around 2K mark. If buying new and driving predominately on the street: Bilstein PSS10 for ease of ajustability (or equivalent H&R units - same thing) or KW V3 for better ride/hanlding mix & no issues with spring bind & tug'n'release so common with aftermarket suspension upgrades in the MKV Golf. KW V3 will allow you to tune heaps of low speed compression rate for max handling; while at the same time the factory pre-fixed high speed compression rate copes with the rougher pot holes, depressions, bumps - two dampers in one in a way (even though adjustability is not so easy). KW V3 will probably lower ride height a bit more than the PSS10 Bilstein. Either or these kits will be a step up in performance with same or better ride than the H&R Sports/Koni Sport and have the added ability to adjust height to your own preference - highley recommended. After this: H&R or Whiteline sway bars to limit the body roll (depends on budget - H&R offer superior NVH & no need to oil). The lower ride height & firmer spring/damper rate will contain body roll to a degree - but sway bars contain body roll more effectively & sway bars also dial out factory understeer more effectively. All those website suppliers products these products to your front door - in many cases, for over 1K + cheaper than you can buy local. Do upgrade in stages to feel maxium benefit of each upgrade (will cost a bit more in labour; but added knowledge is worth it).

^^C + C: Looking at doing another review in the near future. Probably GTI -v- GTI and KW V3 coilover on almost full soft -v- HPA KW SHS coilover also fitted with Whiteline ALK & some Whiteline bushes. The pariticipants in the comparison drives are kept to a min for save time and usually only invited level headed and/or experienced steerers; but may devote some time down the track for others to sample my KW V3 coilover kit or vice versa - maybe on a drive day in the near future. Best advice for Pirelli is to PM 'tinto'; Tinto has a Pirelli with KW V3 fitted (KW V3 used to be on tinto's GT Sport; but he purchased new springs for same coilovers when he traded in GT for Pirelli).

^^^Eugene: Cross look like a fab kit. Great results in the Motor Magazine Hot Tuner Shootout. Not convinced you'd want something so competition based for street use. My KW V3 offer plenty firmness for street & occassinal track use. Cross are firmer again. In addition, I wouldn't put softer spring than recommended on the Cross Coilover, as the damper is designed for standard spring rate - may be a case of too much damper for softer optional spring; which may only allow you to use the lower portion of damper rate - in this repsect I think the HPA KW SHS coilover is safer option as HPA have taken out the guess work; sway bars also give you added spring rate & rididity in addition to added coil spring rate. HPA KW SHS coilover with small H&R or small Whiteline sway bars should do the trick for 90% of street drivers, I reckon. Do upgrade in stages to feel maxium benefit of each upgrade (will cost a bit more in labour; but added knowledge is worth it).

Cheers.
WJ

 

[order last 1]

Thanks for your advice, WJ. Appreciated of your comments for me.

What do you think of a LSD for our car. These days, lots of sports cars has it as manufacture default setting such as Honda civic Type R. I heard a FWD car with big power output will definitly benefit it for cornering, this is enable you to push the car earlier in the turning. Have you ever driven a GTI with that?

 

[WhiteJames]

Never driven a GTI with LSD. Torque sensing LSD like Quaife is an advantage for fwd with loads of load down torque and power. LSD is not a complete fix. Guy Harding's Stage III big turbo APR GTI has a Peliquin LSD I'm told. All that power with LSD and it still wheel spins for eons out of corners. Just too much power for front wheels to handle, which does not make for an ideal balance between power & handling. Forces driver to drive around the idiosyncracies of less driveability & too much power. Always going to be issue when the front wheels are asked to do two things at once - steer & power down. LSD an excellent addition to any GTI - chipped or standard. LSD is not a cheap modification - Diff costs @ 2K plus @ 1.5K for installation. Better to sort out a good suspension package prior to LSD; suspension will aid in putting power to the ground with extra rebound damping & lower ride height & stiffer chassis with addition of sway bars (to the detriment of ride). Rather than go all out on upgrading a GTI with over the top modifications; I'd be inclined to trade up to a Golf R20T with awd or Audi S3/Audi A3 Quattro awd for the ultimate in traction.

Cheers.
WJ

 

[funny]

WJ, how would you rate the V3's against the PSS10?

 

[WhiteJames]

Driven a GTI with PSS10; but not had any extensive time with the Bilstein PSS10.
I considered the PSS10 -v- KW V3 when purchasing. Tough choice.

Bilstein PSS10:

Are easily adjustable.
Inverted piston at the front only for added durability (re: track use).
Not separate compression & rebound adjustable - adjustment change both together with 2 x rebound/1 x compression.
Run H&R springs (like H&R & Sachs coilovers) which are prone to spring slap & tug'n'release clunking - makes them noisey.

KW V3:

Harder to adjust using allen keys & rear dampers have to be dropped out for rebound adjustment.
KW products have no issues with spring bind/slap or tug'n'release - best coilover for NVH imo.
Separate low speed adjustable compression - this allows me to put low-speed compression on almost full soft for good ride in town & on B'grade roadways, without bottoming out on the high speed compression hits as high speed compression is pre-set to a higher level from KW factory & is non-adjustable.
KW products generally offer a better ride at the expense of some trade off in roadway feel; with similar performance. Both are predominantly sports-street coilovers.
KW specialise in coilovers. I've been told that KW was part of Koni until the Americans bought Koni out. KW went out on their own to specialise in coilovers. Probably explains why KW give a Koni valved type ride. Bilstein do not specialise in coilovers; Bilstein usually source products from H&R.

Cheers
WJ

 

[samps]

James, I have a MkV GTI with the stage 2 APR kit and stock suspension. For improved street handling and maybe one track day per year, I'm considering the whiteline adjustable rear bar. Would you recommend also getting the front bar done at the same time (considering group buy is still on) or perhaps HPA KW SHS coilover by themselves? My budget doesn't allow coilovers and front/rear bars at the moment.

Cheers

 

[funny]

Thanks for the info, but I meant more about how the ride felt rather than differences.
Trying to get a rough correlation on rates for PSS10 vs V3 and that may give me a feel on what the Cross may be like in comparison as it is possible to lower rates close to PSS10. This will be supplemented by a ride in the Rennenhaus machine when it's back on road (bearing in mind it's an r vs GTI + other mods done which would affect ride).

Good thing I like about Cross is the damper adjustment is also easy to do a la PSS10 as shocks are inverted front and back. Plus ride isn't affected by changes in height. So only thing holding me back is getting a true test itself to see what the ride is like. Good thing is the Rennenhaus machine's damper settings aren't all the way up one end, so there's still room to move and I might see what it's like at current vs full soft when going around town.

Driven a GTI with PSS10; but not had any extensive time with the Bilstein PSS10.
I considered the PSS10 -v- KW V3 when purchasing. Tough choice.

Bilstein PSS10:

Are easily adjustable.
Inverted piston at the front only for added durability (re: track use).
Not separate compression & rebound adjustable - adjustment change both together with 2 x rebound/1 x compression.
Run H&R springs (like H&R & Sachs coilovers) which are prone to spring slap & tug'n'release clunking - makes them noisey.

KW V3:

Harder to adjust using allen keys & rear dampers have to be dropped out for rebound adjustment.
KW products have no issues with spring bind/slap or tug'n'release - best coilover for NVH imo.
Separate low speed adjustable compression - this allows me to put low-speed compression on almost full soft for good ride in town & on B'grade roadways, without bottoming out on the high speed compression hits as high speed compression is pre-set to a higher level from KW factory & is non-adjustable.
KW products generally offer a better ride at the expense of some trade off in roadway feel; with similar performance. Both are predominantly sports-street coilovers.
KW specialise in coilovers. I've been told that KW was part of Koni until the Americans bought Koni out. KW went out on their own to specialise in coilovers. Probably explains why KW give a Koni valved type ride. Bilstein do not specialise in coilovers; Bilstein usually source products from H&R.

Cheers
WJ

 

[WhiteJames]

This link is a thread created by DanGSR titled 'review: EVERYTHING':

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65289&highlight=dan+gsr

DanGSR builds race cars & motors and is a wealth of knowledge on all aspects of the Golf MKV; not to mention highly respected by forums members including me for the time he takes to assist others in their quest for knowledge.

If you pay particular attention to the comments that DanGSR makes in respect to the JIC-CROSS COILOVER that he has installed in his MKV GOLF, you will see that he does not recommend them for street use. Neither do I. Why?

1. 15 way damper adjustment does not appear to be independent (separate compression/rebound adjustment like KW). Better check if the rear damper is inverted on the JIC-CROSS. With my KW V3 kit: I have the ability to crank up the low-speed compression rate only & total rebound separately. This allows me to either have a race car high low speed compression rate for track, but still have a factory pre-set high speed compression rate for when I drive home from the track and encounter large high speed compression bumps/dips/potholes; and vice versa - I currently have my KW V3 low speed compression (and rebound) set on almost full soft for a nice ride in town and on B-grade tarmac, with the advantage of a factory pre-set KW high speed compression rate to prevent the damper/spring from bottoming out and striking the bump stop (as may be in the case of the PSS9/10 when set on full soft) - this is a major advantage for a street driven vehicle imo.

2. Pillow ball upper mounts are very noisey - create banging as the metal of the pillow ball impacts against the chassis.

3. Camber adjustment is a bonus - but with 20mm lowering, you should receive @ addition -1 neg of camber. This will help handling in cornerns. To save on inside of the tyre wear, you may have to adjust the toe, esp if doing long straight freeway drives with minimal corners. This may detract from turn-in response.

4. Helper Spring - another area weer noise may be apparent - once helper spring is completely closed, the two metal plates may bang together creating more noise. KW does not use helper springs; rather using linear cone shaped single spring for the front of MKV. In addition: Helper spring compresses under body weight of chassis, extending if you jack up vehicle or get airbourne to help keep the spring from unseating itself and popping out - similar effect to the closely spaced springs in the Eibach ProKit/Sportline/H&R Sports also creates noise (spring bind noise in this case).

5. Adustable Lower Bracket - does reduce bump stop impact on full compression. Very rarely will you hit the bump stop for street driving. My last Eibach ProKit/Koni-FSD kit, the bump stops were like brand new; despite bashing it over runs like Waterfall or in the country out to the farm.

6. Linear Spring - Linear spring provides create feedback & control for the chassis & driver. Makes for a crap ride on the street; great for race track. In addition: JIC-Cross spring rates are not only linear; but tend to be at the higher echleon compared to other coilover brands - makes for even worse ride.

JIC-CROSS are great for track; not so good for a street driven vehicle.

If JIC-CROSS were good for a street driven vehicle; I would have them on my ride.

Dan_GSR does not recommend JIC-CROSS for a regularly driven street vehicle; neither do I.

Cheers
WJ

 

[WhiteJames]

Samps:

Stage II APR - Serious stuff.
Stage II APR generally requires that you look at upgrading other areas to compensate for added power such as:
Suspension - dampers/springs or coilovers and maybe sway bars.
Brakes - at the very least; better quality rotors/pads with the option of better lines & fluid - ideally a BBK.
Wheels/tyres - high quality rubber & possibly slightly bigger wheels & bigger and better rubber.
Driveline: Maybe even a LSD and/or clutch upgrade and possibly engine mounts.

Answer to your question:

I'd do the following in this order:

1. HPA KW SHS - exchange rate AUD/USD is favourable atm. HPA KW SHS costs 1095USD + 375 USD shipping + @ 15% customs duty/tax charges makes for fantastic value for money upgrade for a street vehicle.
2. Rear sway bar - Whiteline or H&R 22mm. The 22mm H&R bar is a bit of overkill for the stock GTI suspension; but with the HPA KW SHS which has higher rate front springs & higher rate low speed compression & rebound, I'm betting that the rear only small 22mm solid sway should work reasonably well with the HPA KW SHS coilover kit. The stiffer front HPA KW SHS springs will compensate for the added spring rate & rigidity of the upgraded rear sway bar - unlike the stock GTI.
3. Front Sway Bar - add this last. Probably 26mm adjustable solid H&R on soft setting or 22mm Whiteline or 24mm Whiteline solid (24mm Whiteline solid on full soft).
4. Later on if you want a rear rear sway bar; cheap to remove and add a larger 24mm Whiteline sway bar. The 26mm/22mm on soft/hard on my GTI work fine for a near neutral chassis dynamic.

In the near future; some of the sway bars will be on the 'for sale thread' 2nd hand and groups buys occur every 3-6mths locally.

Cheers.
WJ

 

[samps]

Thanks James. I'd love those HPA coilovers to help put the power down, however $2k landed is a bit out of the question right now. Also I forgot to mention I have the dog mount insert from APR which does help a bit with traction.

If I went the whiteline rear bar right now for a few hundred $$, are you saying the whiteline 22mm non adjustable is preferred over the 24mm adjustable (even on soft)?

 

[funny]

Thanks WJ. I have read what DnGSR has put up. It's also been mentioned many times on the US forums that he isn't exactly "your normal driver".
I find it interesting that he rates PSS10/9 as too soft, yet others would swear by them. Also that some in the US would hit bump stops regularly and others never at all. It obviously does depend in part on how low you are, but it is interesting to hear a reasonably large variation in opinions and experiences. Makes for a more confusing decision making process.

You will also note that there is no mention of what damper settings have been put to (very well could be high to allow for autoX). Also Dan has opted for a higher than standard rate in the rear 9kg vs 6kg. Plus he has his mammoth (read ridiculous for street) rear bar. Plus he doesn't change settings from autoX to street (including 3 deg -ve camber). All makes for a poorer street ride.
So though I do value his opinion, I also have to take it with a grain of salt.
In fact, I'd value yours more given how you use the vehicle in comparison to him. Unfortunately, no one in Oz bar Ian will have long term experience with Cross in a Mk5 Golf.

Good point on helper spring, spring/plate slap is not something I had thought of in that respect.

Still willing to take a ride in the Rennenhaus car - will be the only way to tell in the end, with 1st hand experience.

This link is a thread created by DanGSR titled 'review: EVERYTHING':

<SNIP>

Dan_GSR does not recommend JIC-CROSS for a regularly driven street vehicle; neither do I.

Cheers
WJ

 

[Frenchie]

Thanks James. I'd love those HPA coilovers to help put the power down, however $2k landed is a bit out of the question right now. Also I forgot to mention I have the dog mount insert from APR which does help a bit with traction.

If I went the whiteline rear bar right now for a few hundred $$, are you saying the whiteline 22mm non adjustable is preferred over the 24mm adjustable (even on soft)?

Check for sale section..

 

[WhiteJames]

^Best to take a ride in a few different setups before you commit to anything. Having read the MOTOR Magazine 'Hot Tuna' feature:

I see that the R32 with the JIC-CROSS had an impressive apex speed at Oran Park Raceway. I think this evidence to a degree that the JIC-CROSS are very firm items indeed. With limited info on hand, I'd rate them line-ball with KW Competition coilovers; over above the Clubsport KW.

To be fair and impartial; a few other factors may be a factor in the good showing with the JIC-CROSS coilover R32:

1. Lighter weight of this R32 as apposed to the Turbo R32 which weighs @ 80kg more with the turbo + plumbing + BBK.
2. Better tyres - Yokohama on the turbo R32; Yokohama tyres were good once upon a time when Alan Grice won Bathurst in a Chickadee Commodore 20 years ago. I reckon Yokohama tyres are crap.
3. Harder suspension & engine mounts limiting movement and adding rigidity.
4. Changes in camber & toe to suit racetrack conditions.
5. Less unsprung weight of wheels and brakes on JIC-CROSS R32.

Bear in mind that the MOTOR Magazine article appears to be a track focussed article; rather than an all types of roadway terrain drive. Still consistent with what Dan_GSR and I have to say re: JIC-CROSS more suitable for track work.

My own setup:

It's evident in my write up of the KW V3 that I start with dampening rates @ 50% front soft to hard; then progressive soften up the damper rates after the novelty of great handling has worn off and the reality of driving in Sydney suburbia & Sydney City becomes more evident. I think its better to go that bit softer for a street driven vehicle.

HPA KW SHS:

Looks like HPA will establish a local Australian outlet. With one additional intermediary in the sale process from manufacture to end user; I envisage that prices for the HPA KW SHS to rise over what you can import them directly for. After all, the local distributor has to make a living. I estimate that local pricing may be around the $2200 to $2600 AUD to compete with other providers & brands in the market. Direct import should have the HPA KW SHS landed for @ $1700-$1800 AUD. In this respect; I think now is the time to buy the HPA KW SHS kit.

Cheers.
WJ

Cheers.
WJ