The case for, and cost of, disabling Car-Net

[VWowner611]

Car-Net is VW’s implementation of what is generally referred to as telematics. The car contains a cellular radio through which many functions can be controlled, operations performed, location tracked, and engine/systems data collected. VW sells some of these functions to consumers through a subscription service, such as remotely unlocking the doors, locating the parked car, geo-fencing, checking the fuel level, etc. It also can automatically call emergency services in the event of an accident (although I would point out that my Honda HR-V will do the same thing for free using Bluetooth through my own phone – it doesn’t have a cellular radio of its own). If you’re interested, see http://www.vwcarnetconnect.com/security-service/ for more information.

For some people these services are worth the subscription cost, although judging from posts on various websites, the current price point ($200/year or $18/month) makes it relatively unpopular. Of course you can opt not to subscribe.

But it’s important to be aware that even if you don’t subscribe, there are two “costs” to having Car-Net operating in your vehicle. The first cost is loss of privacy. VW retains the ability to communicate with your car without your knowledge or consent, to control various systems, and to monitor virtually every aspect of its operation including audio and location. To my knowledge, there is no law in the U.S. that prohibits VW from such monitoring. Except for acknowledging that they may provide location information to law enforcement upon request, VW does not divulge how they uses these capabilities, or under what circumstances. But I know from personal experience that they are doggedly determined not to relinquish them.

I know that I will be accused of being paranoid, or wearing a tin-foil hat for worrying about this. But I have my own metaphor for those who are so dismissive. They are frogs being slowly brought to a boil in a surveillance society where privacy is gradually ebbing away because of their apathy. By the time they realize it’s a problem it will be too late. And I know to a moral certainty that any system that can be abused eventually will be abused.

The second cost is hacking risk. One can easily imagine some black hat deciding to hack into VW’s systems to disable every VW in the U.S. for fun – or ransom; or hackers could simply unlock individual doors to facilitate theft; or ______ you fill in the blank. So for those of us who elect not to buy Car-Net’s subscription services, the presence of this equipment presents only downside.

Given all this I set about to have Car-Net disabled. What a struggle it was! The Car-Net brochure, the Car-Net Consent Form and the 2017 AllTrack owner’s manual all state that equipment must be removed from the car to completely disable Car-Net. But in fact that is untrue. Car-net can be disabled through software configuration. As noted by Frank Weith, General Manager of Connected Services for Volkswagen Group of America, a dealer can disable Car-Net cellular communications by putting it into so-called “Flight Mode” (http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20160809-your-car-is-not-your-friend).

It sounds straightforward, but my dealer had no idea how to do it. When I asked VW customer service to instruct my dealer how to disable Car-Net, I was met with four months of stonewalling, deflection, dissembling, and outright lies. At every turn they denied that there is any way to disable Car-Net. To make a very long story short, they eventually relented and put my dealer in touch with someone at VW who helped them put it into “flight mode.” (If you encounter similar stonewalling, write to me at VWowner611@outlook.com and I’ll give you the phone number of the representative who finally helped me.)

VW of America required the dealer to charge me $500 for this 75-minute procedure. The price seems clearly punitive – set to discourage customers from choosing this option. I will leave it to you to speculate as to why VW so strenuously hides this option from customers, and then overcharges those who insist on pursuing it. Given their deeply entrenched resistance, I suspect that there’s money involved. But I believe that as the owner of the vehicle I should not have to pay $500 to protect myself from the risks posed above. I should be able to opt out at no cost.

Finally, if you don’t want to spend the $500 and are game to perform some major dashboard surgery, check out this post on how to disable Car-Net yourself: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7155564-Killing-CarNet-how-to-find-bypass-and-remove-the-CarNet-box-(what-s-inside-it-and-how-to-repurpose-the-buttons-too!)

 

[StealthGTI]

Hello,

I found it relatively easy to unplug the antenna. You only need to unplug the wire for CarNet (red?), not the other two. In my case, I also replaced the antenna with one designed for amateur radio (which also killed my GPS and Sirius feeds). I saw an annoying red light on the CarNet panel for months (instead of the green light that most of you probably see). To my surprise, this light eventually extinguished, probably because the module timed out after not seeing a signal for so long... or it died trying.

I may still go into VCDS and disabled the module further, but I don't seem to get any indications that something is wrong unless I try to use Sirius or select "Automatic" for time sync. I never select Sirius and the clock has kept great time over the past 18 months.

Scott

 

[VWowner611]

Hello,

I found it relatively easy to unplug the antenna. You only need to unplug the wire for CarNet (red?), not the other two. In my case, I also replaced the antenna with one designed for amateur radio (which also killed my GPS and Sirius feeds). I saw an annoying red light on the CarNet panel for months (instead of the green light that most of you probably see). To my surprise, this light eventually extinguished, probably because the module timed out after not seeing a signal for so long... or it died trying.

I may still go into VCDS and disabled the module further, but I don't seem to get any indications that something is wrong unless I try to use Sirius or select "Automatic" for time sync. I never select Sirius and the clock has kept great time over the past 18 months.

Scott

After disconnecting the antenna, did you do any testing to confirm that cellular communications were truly disabled? In the VWvortex post cited at the bottom of my post above, shuko went to some extraordinary lengths, including shorting the putative antenna terminals at the Car-net module. But the cellular communication still functioned.

 

[StealthGTI]

No. I didn't conduct any testing. The lights are out and I can still disable further via VCDS. That'll suffice for me.

 

[CDavis7M]

Isn't the GSM antenna in the fin? I believe you could replace the fin antenna or potentially rewire.

Presumably the original antenna:
ANTENNA - VOLKSWAGEN (5Q0-035-507-L-5FQ)
Description: All. With satellite radio, with navigation, with on line service

Which you could replace with:
ANTENNA - VOLKSWAGEN (5Q0-035-507-E-5FQ)
Description: With satellite radio, with navigation, without on line service.


Also, cosmetically, there apparently is this:
COVER - VOLKSWAGEN (5G0-867-071-A-82V)
Description: Without vw connect, black.

 

[VWowner611]

Isn't the GSM antenna in the fin? I believe you could replace the fin antenna or potentially rewire.

Presumably the original antenna:
ANTENNA - VOLKSWAGEN (5Q0-035-507-L-5FQ)
Description: All. With satellite radio, with navigation, with on line service

Which you could replace with:
ANTENNA - VOLKSWAGEN (5Q0-035-507-E-5FQ)
Description: With satellite radio, with navigation, without on line service.


Also, cosmetically, there apparently is this:
COVER - VOLKSWAGEN (5G0-867-071-A-82V)
Description: Without vw connect, black.

I'm an electrical engineer, though certainly not an expert on microwave communications. But I'm pretty sure that even if one compromises the RF pathway, it's hard to stifle it completely unless it's done right at the RF output pins of the chip. Even if you try to terminate the disconnected cable with an appropriate impedance you may still end up with a radio that functions, but only within an unknown distance from a Verizon tower.
Unfortunately, short of removing the module itself, there is no way to be certain that the cellular radio is not functioning. And even complete removal has its downside, as it disables the microphone used for bluetooth with the phone. One can insert some jumpers into the empty module connector to patch this (as noted above in the thread cited at the end of my original post) but since the audio path through the module is not direct from pin to pin, there’s no way to know whether or how the audio signal has been compromised with the jumper workaround (e.g. level changes, digital filtering or noise reduction bypassed, etc.).

The overwhelming majority of owners will not have the resources, ability, or confidence to try to disable the system themselves either through firmware configuration or hardware hacks even if one assumes that the effort will succeed, which is not knowable. My opinion is that VW should disable the radio free of charge for any customer who requests it.

 

[Shane_Anigans]

VW of America required the dealer to charge me $500 for this 75-minute procedure. The price seems clearly punitive – set to discourage customers from choosing this option. I will leave it to you to speculate as to why VW so strenuously hides this option from customers, and then overcharges those who insist on pursuing it.

I've worked in service at several dealers over the years, and my dad's been in the business since the 1970s, so I'm fairly certain that's not a true statement, whoever told you it was. Car dealers are independently owned and operated businesses, and while franchise agreements from the manufacturer do govern how certain facets of the business must operate, customer-paid labor isn't one of them. They cannot legally require a dealership to charge a minimum fee for any repair that the customer wants done, if the customer is paying the bill to do it, unless the service department participates in some sort of promotion (like he one Ford advertised in all those commercials starring The Rock.)

More likely, the dealership had to spend hours figuring out how to perform the procedure, and factored that into the price they charged you. Also, because they're free to charge whatever they like, they are free to inflate the price based on how much of a pain in their ass the customer is being. The reason it seemed like they were trying to discourage you from doing it is also the slippery slope effect; after they do something to a car that isn't a standard repair, the customer will start trying to pin any subsequent fault on the procedure they wanted done in the first place. Radio stopped working? Must be because the dealer messed up when they disabled Car-Net. TPMS light comes on? Car-Net caused it. Tree fell on the car? Car-Net. It just never ends.

Personally, I'd be interested to know exactly what nefarious motives VW (or every other car company) has behind installing a telematics system in a vehicle, but I suppose if I were that concerned about it, I'd throw my phone and computer in the river, and then go live in the woods. Even then, I probably wouldn't be entirely safe, because the tracker that the dentist secretly installed when he did my filling is going to lead the drones right to my shed.

 

[VWowner611]

I've worked in service at several dealers over the years, and my dad's been in the business since the 1970s, so I'm fairly certain that's not a true statement, whoever told you it was. Car dealers are independently owned and operated businesses, and while franchise agreements from the manufacturer do govern how certain facets of the business must operate, customer-paid labor isn't one of them. They cannot legally require a dealership to charge a minimum fee for any repair that the customer wants done, if the customer is paying the bill to do it, unless the service department participates in some sort of promotion (like he one Ford advertised in all those commercials starring The Rock.)

More likely, the dealership had to spend hours figuring out how to perform the procedure, and factored that into the price they charged you. Also, because they're free to charge whatever they like, they are free to inflate the price based on how much of a pain in their ass the customer is being. The reason it seemed like they were trying to discourage you from doing it is also the slippery slope effect; after they do something to a car that isn't a standard repair, the customer will start trying to pin any subsequent fault on the procedure they wanted done in the first place. Radio stopped working? Must be because the dealer messed up when they disabled Car-Net. TPMS light comes on? Car-Net caused it. Tree fell on the car? Car-Net. It just never ends.

Personally, I'd be interested to know exactly what nefarious motives VW (or every other car company) has behind installing a telematics system in a vehicle, but I suppose if I were that concerned about it, I'd throw my phone and computer in the river, and then go live in the woods. Even then, I probably wouldn't be entirely safe, because the tracker that the dentist secretly installed when he did my filling is going to lead the drones right to my shed.

You couldn’t be more wrong. The dealer was on my side throughout this odyssey. When I first asked them to disable Car-Net (before I learned about “Flight Mode”) they removed the Car-Net module. But as they had predicted, based on wiring diagrams, the mic was dead and Bluetooth to my phone didn’t work. So they reinstalled the module. It was a total of about 2 hours of labor, for which they charged me … nothing. They agreed that it should be my prerogative to have it disabled, but didn’t know how to do it. They contacted their “tech-line” and were advised that if the customer wanted “invisibility” he would have to contact Customer Service for “more options.” That’s what started the odyssey. The dealer was frozen out.

At one point in the process I got referred back to the dealer, and they asked their Car-Net tech support for help again. This time they were told it could be done, but it would cost between $500 and $2000 (no explanation of why). They still weren’t told HOW to do it. So I made an appointment and dropped the car for two days. The dealer provided a loaner free of charge. During the second day they called and said the VW tech-line support had reneged, and were now saying it couldn’t be done.

When I finally appealed to senior management at VW of North America, Customer Support suddenly changed their tune. They called me, were very solicitous, and coordinated the appointment with the dealer themselves. They (not the dealer) told me it would cost $500. When I brought the car in, they put the dealer in touch with someone named Joe at VW who either talked them through it, or did it himself remotely – I don’t know which.

I paid the $500, but told the Service Manager that I though the fee was punitive. He agreed, but said that his hands were tied because VW required that they charge that total. The $500 wasn’t itemized on the bill, but he later explained that it included 75 minutes of dealer labor, and the rest of the money went to straight to VW. He then agreed to refund their labor charge. He couldn’t refund the rest because VW collected it. So while it’s true that VW didn’t dictate the dealer’s labor charge, they did charge the dealer the magical amount needed to reach their desired total.

And finally, the people who heard voices from fillings in their teeth weren’t crazy. It turned out that the metal-fluid interface at the amalgam surface has a non-linear current-voltage relationship, and is weakly rectifying. So in the presence of a strong RF field (in the vicinity of an AM radio station transmitter) the RF envelope can be demodulated by the rectification into an audio signal current, which flows through nearby extracellular salt fluid. That current elicits proportional movement of the basilar membrane in the inner each (it’s called the electrophonic effect) caused by contractions of the outer hair cells. So people were just hearing AM radio stations. But the electrophonic effect hadn’t been identified at the time, so they were dismissed as crazy by people like you.

You can mock me all you want. I don’t expect to convince you that privacy matters, and I don’t mind if you’re willing to give up yours. Just don’t expect me to give up mine. And apart from the privacy question, the hacking risk remains. It may be acceptable to you, but it’s not to me. And it should be my choice, not VW’s.

 

[BronxBomber]

You couldn’t be more wrong. The dealer was on my side throughout this odyssey. When I first asked them to disable Car-Net (before I learned about “Flight Mode”) they removed the Car-Net module. But as they had predicted, based on wiring diagrams, the mic was dead and Bluetooth to my phone didn’t work. So they reinstalled the module. It was a total of about 2 hours of labor, for which they charged me … nothing. They agreed that it should be my prerogative to have it disabled, but didn’t know how to do it. They contacted their “tech-line” and were advised that if the customer wanted “invisibility” he would have to contact Customer Service for “more options.” That’s what started the odyssey. The dealer was frozen out.

At one point in the process I got referred back to the dealer, and they asked their Car-Net tech support for help again. This time they were told it could be done, but it would cost between $500 and $2000 (no explanation of why). They still weren’t told HOW to do it. So I made an appointment and dropped the car for two days. The dealer provided a loaner free of charge. During the second day they called and said the VW tech-line support had reneged, and were now saying it couldn’t be done.

When I finally appealed to senior management at VW of North America, Customer Support suddenly changed their tune. They called me, were very solicitous, and coordinated the appointment with the dealer themselves. They (not the dealer) told me it would cost $500. When I brought the car in, they put the dealer in touch with someone named Joe at VW who either talked them through it, or did it himself remotely – I don’t know which.

I paid the $500, but told the Service Manager that I though the fee was punitive. He agreed, but said that his hands were tied because VW required that they charge that total. The $500 wasn’t itemized on the bill, but he later explained that it included 75 minutes of dealer labor, and the rest of the money went to straight to VW. He then agreed to refund their labor charge. He couldn’t refund the rest because VW collected it. So while it’s true that VW didn’t dictate the dealer’s labor charge, they did charge the dealer the magical amount needed to reach their desired total.

And finally, the people who heard voices from fillings in their teeth weren’t crazy. It turned out that the metal-fluid interface at the amalgam surface has a non-linear current-voltage relationship, and is weakly rectifying. So in the presence of a strong RF field (in the vicinity of an AM radio station transmitter) the RF envelope can be demodulated by the rectification into an audio signal current, which flows through nearby extracellular salt fluid. That current elicits proportional movement of the basilar membrane in the inner each (it’s called the electrophonic effect) caused by contractions of the outer hair cells. So people were just hearing AM radio stations. But the electrophonic effect hadn’t been identified at the time, so they were dismissed as crazy by people like you.

You can mock me all you want. I don’t expect to convince you that privacy matters, and I don’t mind if you’re willing to give up yours. Just don’t expect me to give up mine. And apart from the privacy question, the hacking risk remains. It may be acceptable to you, but it’s not to me. And it should be my choice, not VW’s.

I agree with you 100%. I may take up this ordeal, as I too am very wary of Big Brother and his snooping into all facets of my life. Let’s see how this goes with the dealer first.

 

[Loonster]

General Patreus who later became CIA director said that the "internet of things" would in fact be used to gather data on citizens. Point blank. We now have refrigerators that are Wi-Fi connected and can send you photos of what is in your refrigerator while you're at work. We have cell phones that can listen in on conversations and have their cameras turned on without our knowledge. The cam corder on your laptop can be turned on without your knowledge.

We are never truly alone anymore and yes, at the request of law enforcement your VW can, and will be disabled. We're all on the grid, and getting off the grid is next to impossible, not in this country anyway.

It's interesting that those who think the way the OP does, are called paranoid when in fact the CIA, FBI and NSA are the most paranoid of the bunch. They're so frightened by us, they spy on all of us. And what has all of this spying ability gotten them? Nothing. We've had 3 train derailments in the last 50 days, no word if it was sabotage, and if so by whom. We're herded like cattle at the airport while the TSA does whatever it is they do, and still we read stories about weirdos attacking flight attendants and trying to get inside cockpits. I recently read a story that said within the next 4 years biometrics will replace passports. That's right folks, that means retinal scanners and digital finger prints or you don't get on the airplane. They're already using the systems on some international flights.

There's a thread on this site called the "Gun enthusiast thread" I went on there just for the amusement and made a comment that perhaps posting photos of firearms on the net wasn't the best idea, and some snarky smartass told me to take the tin foil hat off. There's nothing wrong with you OP, you're just seeing things for what they truly are. Not to worry, there are many others who see the same things you do.

 

[StealthGTI]

I agree, BUT, unless one has also shunned smartphones, computers, and other Internet-enabled devices, disabling CarNet will do very little to prevent the tracking of ones whereabouts or activity. I like my privacy, but I also understand that I've relinquished a lot of it by carrying a smartphone. I'm also on the verge of replacing the climate controls in my home; I suspect it's getting tougher to find thermostats and systems that are not connected to the web somehow. But I'll try to avoid it while I can.

 

[golfdave]

I agree, BUT, unless one has also shunned smartphones, computers, and other Internet-enabled devices, disabling CarNet will do very little to prevent the tracking of ones whereabouts or activity. I like my privacy, but I also understand that I've relinquished a lot of it by carrying a smartphone. I'm also on the verge of replacing the climate controls in my home; I suspect it's getting tougher to find thermostats and systems that are not connected to the web somehow. But I'll try to avoid it while I can.

Whats a smart phone???..

still running an old military spec Samsung non smart phone 11yrs old & counting...

Look for industrial spec heating controls "Siemens" I have & have had fro 24yrs....latest lot is 8yrs old & the industrial stuff has no consumer rubbish whizz-bangs...

 

[VWowner611]

I agree, BUT, unless one has also shunned smartphones, computers, and other Internet-enabled devices, disabling CarNet will do very little to prevent the tracking of ones whereabouts or activity. I like my privacy, but I also understand that I've relinquished a lot of it by carrying a smartphone. I'm also on the verge of replacing the climate controls in my home; I suspect it's getting tougher to find thermostats and systems that are not connected to the web somehow. But I'll try to avoid it while I can.

True enough. But a key difference with the smartphone is that you can disable it if and when you want. You can disable data communication, and you can disable GPS and Wi-Fi location sensing. I do. I turn them on when they're useful to me, and off otherwise. With telematics, you have no control. I don't deny that privacy is slipping ever farther away for most people, sacrificed at the altar of of convenience. But I object to VW making that obligatory, even when I don't need, want, or use the convenience.

 

[Jack Straw]

So far I like Car Net.

 

[yeahforbes]

I realize this thread is ancient, but better to necro than duplicate, right?

I was just reading about a new class action suit against GM / OnStar / LexisNexis for improperly sharing vehicle telematics data with insurance companies, which got me donning my tinfoil hat in regards to Car-Net, so I searched for how to disable it which brought me to this thread.

VW emailed me in November 2021 and February 2022 saying this:

We’re reaching out today to inform you of an upcoming change to VW Car-Net services. AT&T, the wireless telecommunication network associated with VW Car-Net services has informed us of its decision to discontinue 3G wireless service in the U.S. starting February 22nd, 2022 as part of its network technology upgrade cycle.

This means that your 2017 Volkswagen GOLF R DCC/NAV 4D AUTO will no longer be able to transmit or receive data. If you have an active VW Car-Net Security & Service subscription, it will not extend past January 31, 2022.

That means it's already incapable of leaking my driving data, so I can safely leave it all connected, right? Or does the fact that this uses weasel words like "decision to" and "starting" mean that there's still 3G towers lit up that Car-Net can talk to in some places? The fact that my "subscription" (which I never had in the first place) "will not extend past January 31, 2022" doesn't necessarily mean that non-subscription telemetry isn't continuing.