Do you need good reactions to be a good driver?

[GodSquadMandrake]

I was wondering about this today. I'm pretty sloth-like when it comes to reactions. So I suck at boxing, card slapping games, and sports in general. But when I'm driving it's more like playing a musical instrument. I already know what I have to do before I start so there is no reactions really. But some types of driving, like rally and I'm sure F1 need fast reactions. You see drivers avoid obstacles and attack for the pass. So like I was just wondering about this.

I used to have a driving friend and his style was the opposite. He doesn't think, he'll just bomb down a road and adjust on the fly constantly working the wheel and throttle. We did a rallycross together co-driving his 2.5RS Impreza. He took #1 and I took #2. The rallycross was just on sheer ice with a foot of snow dumped on top, so the course changed every heat. He was able to be very dynamic and get the car to rotate and adjust to the conditions. I was more static. So this is the best example I can give of slow reactions. But we also did time attack in his WRX wagon and I beat him every time. He uses the same rally style of very snappy transitions, quick steering wheel movements, snappy shifts, and constantly sawing the wheel in corners. I am very smooth and ease onto the brakes like a wave, slowly roll into the corner loading the suspension, and slowly unwind the wheel as I increase throttle. So it worked better for time attack, but I knew the course so well I did it at night, in the fog, with the headlights off. So there wasn't any surprise or "reacting". It was just like a recital on a musical instrument with each corner being like hitting a musical note. So I can't say which driver is better, sometimes I win, sometimes he wins. But I question if a "recital" driver like myself could ever be successful. What's your opinions?

 

[GTI_Speed]

If I was a team a manager I would take your style over his. His style will cook tires much faster than yours in a race format. He might have a quicker lap here or there but I think in a 30lap race you would have the faster average because you will be more consistant and have more tire left at the end of the day.

I remember seeing a youtube video of that Drift King guy, can't remember his name, but the video showed him driving in the JGTC and he was absolutely blowing by some of the other cars but would wreck or scrub tire so fast that he ended up finishing mid pack. Great video though, if I had access to YouTube at work I'd post it. I'll try to find it later.

 

[GodSquadMandrake]

Yeah I saw that unfold in just a 10 minute Nissan March cup. Some cars were just blowing by the others, but after just a few minutes these faster cars were coming into the pits with smoking brakes, crashed bumpers, blown tires, etc. It seemed like these faster cars were also using limited slip differentials. I'm not sure if it was the difference in equipment or just drivers style or both. But the winner was a middle aged man who was just running middle of the pack until people started dropping out.

I was thinking about Sébastien Loeb's style when he was in WRC. It's very boring and he never seems to have a big drift or "moments". Just no-nonsense driving with computer like consistency. And then you have Colin McRae who was WAY more fun to watch every time. Honestly I'd rather be Colin McRae and of course I liked him better. But nobody can argue Sébastien Loeb's success.

 

[GodSquadMandrake]

Regarding Keiichi Tsuchiya, the drift king, he is self made famous and self promoted. So the only time you get to see him on TV is on his own television shows. It's like watching an episode of cops because they never show the ones that got away. They only show the times when the crims get caught, but you know that in reality that a Crown Vic isn't that hard to out run.

 

[calc]

He uses the same rally style of very snappy transitions, quick steering wheel movements, snappy shifts, and constantly sawing the wheel in corners. I am very smooth and ease onto the brakes like a wave, slowly roll into the corner loading the suspension, and slowly unwind the wheel as I increase throttle. So it worked better for time attack, but I knew the course so well I did it at night, in the fog, with the headlights off. So there wasn't any surprise or "reacting". It was just like a recital on a musical instrument with each corner being like hitting a musical note.

This is one of the main reasons I prefer being on the track as opposed to the auto-x course - it's the near-instant repetition, the rhythm you can achieve, and the fluidity of all of your motions. I understand that smoothness is important in auto-x as well - in fact, based on the opinions of observers, my quickest auto-x runs have also been my smoothest - it's just that your transitions, steering/throttle inputs, etc. are all compressed due to the nature of the course.

Personally, I do considerably better with repetition and rhythm, which is more easily achieved when you're hitting the same turns a minute and a half later on the track as opposed to a half-hour later on the auto-x course. Others just thrive on the auto-x course because of driving and learning styles.

To get any closer to answering your question, though, I think it's also important to note that I can be quick with my reactions and motions (e.g., I have played and continue to play sports successfully and competitively). However, my success came not just with how quickly I could react or move, but in how I reacted or moved - my mechanics. This I improved with proper instruction, repetition, correction, and more repetition - otherwise known as practice!

 

[Dynjo]

When I started autocrossing, I shared the car with a partner. His inputs were slower, the car was never loose, and he didn't hit many cones. I was pretty much the opposite - sliding the car around too much, posting blazing times (if only they didn't have those cone penalties!). I would say we were equally successful/unsuccessful.

Over the years we shared the car, he made big improvements by amping-up his aggressiveness. He attacked the courses much harder and was rewarded for that. It often meant he had to correct more wiggles and slides, but at least he wasn't leaving anything on the table.

On the other hand, I worked hard to tidy-up my driving, run better lines, and became generally more effective at not losing time with excessive corrections and catches.

Again our competitiveness was about equal, but I will say one thing... I think it is a whole lot easier for a loose/sloppy/over-the-edge type of driver to throttle back than it is for a conservative, timid driver to summon up the sheer aggressiveness that is sometimes called-for.

So, I think you can start from either end of the spectrum, but realize you have to have the optimum combination of aggressiveness and control.

My daughter is a pretty good tennis player. She has a very aggressive style. When she loses, it's because she made too many unforced errors. The coaches tell her this is a better place to come from, as opposed to a defensive, avoid-the-error-at-all-costs style that ends up with few unforced errors, but also few winners.

 

[LOUCFUR]

I was thinking about Sébastien Loeb's style when he was in WRC. It's very boring and he never seems to have a big drift or "moments". Just no-nonsense driving with computer like consistency. And then you have Colin McRae who was WAY more fun to watch every time. Honestly I'd rather be Colin McRae and of course I liked him better. But nobody can argue Sébastien Loeb's success.

Loeb is still racing in the wrc ...

 

[GodSquadMandrake]

Oh I thought he went F1 now.

Good points Dynjo. I think what you're saying is that it's just a difference of style and both can work.

That's a good point Calc, that you have to have to correct reaction not just some reaction. Good input here. Well I know I probably don't have enough talent to handle professional racing, but it'll be fun "meet my match" someday and know that I've just bitten off more than I can chew. I'll never know until I try I guess. But dang it's expensive to try real racing. Just like $30,000 for a single race. I have an invite to Ebisu circuit in Fukushima prefecture on the 28th for a 9 hour endurance race with a team driving an Integra. They're splitting the costs and it's only going to be around $1,000, but I don't have that even. I know it's pretty special because this track was just destroyed by the great tohoku earthquake. But I can't afford it.

 

[calc]

But dang it's expensive to try real racing.

I hear that.

I've made it my personal - life-long, if need be - goal to club race at least once. Instead of having a bucket list I have this as my bucket item. I think of the costs to gain requisite experience, licensure, and car prep, and then realize I don't even have a truck and trailer to get my car to the track! We all have different priorities, opportunities, and resources, though . . . I just hope not too many club racers, or any of those at the professional level, take their experiences for granted.

 

[bostonaudi]

Club racing would be fun, but its a big jump in budget over DE'ing. I'm starting to realize just how expensive even that is with all the crap that keeps breaking or wearing out way faster than normal.

I've always felt good judgement behind the wheel is just as, or perhaps more important than reaction time. The more time you have behind the wheel, the better trained your brain becomes on what to do, which really applies to any physical activity. I've run some 30 DE's now, and still learn new stuff every time. I try to drive smoothly but I manage to blow through tires and brakes pads like crazy anyhow.

 

[GodSquadMandrake]

These are all really good points. Money seems to be the key no matter who you are. No matter what your handicap is money can fix it, unless you're just plain stupid. Time for inappropriate Ron White joke...



Ok back to being serious. I think the money is only as big of an obstacle as you make it. If you are willing to do what is necessary, and that means big sacrifices, there's a chance. But this means going even deep into it than the guy who has a Corvette ZR1 parked outside of his single wide trailer as he eats Dinty Moore for dinner. But then you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it and do some soul searching, for one thing that's not a family friendly lifestyle. I think we can draw on the wisdom of Cartman from Southpark here:

"Kenny you dumbass girls don't want to eat popsicles for dinner every night." - Cartman. That quote might be a little inaccurate but you get the point. If you spend all your money on racing then you're probably a jerk and no sane woman wants to be with you. Until you actually win something and get famous and then of course we know every woman wants to be with you.

Maybe the best I can manage is to be one of those old men who have been a member of their local SCCA chapter for 40 years and harass the aspiring young drivers by stealing FTD every Sunday.

 

[BlackVR]

These are all really good points. Money seems to be the key no matter who you are. No matter what your handicap is money can fix it, unless you're just plain stupid. Time for inappropriate Ron White joke...



Ok back to being serious. I think the money is only as big of an obstacle as you make it. If you are willing to do what is necessary, and that means big sacrifices, there's a chance. But this means going even deep into it than the guy who has a Corvette ZR1 parked outside of his single wide trailer as he eats Dinty Moore for dinner. But then you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it and do some soul searching, for one thing that's not a family friendly lifestyle. I think we can draw on the wisdom of Cartman from Southpark here:

"Kenny you dumbass girls don't want to eat popsicles for dinner every night." - Cartman. That quote might be a little inaccurate but you get the point. If you spend all your money on racing then you're probably a jerk and no sane woman wants to be with you. Until you actually win something and get famous and then of course we know every woman wants to be with you.

Maybe the best I can manage is to be one of those old men who have been a member of their local SCCA chapter for 40 years and harass the aspiring young drivers by stealing FTD every Sunday.

It really is soul searching. You have to ask yourself, is your goal in life to "settle down and raise a family" or do you want to be a race car driver. Do you want to get married and have kids because you want to get married and have kids, or do you want it because that's the social norm? There are women out there that will respect that you're following your dream, sticking to it, and making sacrifices for it. Start adding kids into that equation though, and things change fast.

 

[g_berserk]

There is this saying that "Fast drivers have slow hands"...
I never truly believed it but there is some truth to it.

When I first started autocrossing I watched some guys from local clubs drifting and sliding their way in every single curve even on FWD cars and taking the podium always, so I naturally thought it was the right way of doing it.

Needless to say, I plowed on cones like there's no tomorrow and couldn't get over the middle of the time table no matter how much I tried even with the same car as the first place.
Then this guy with a stock Suzuki Swift came by and was making the same times as the guys in the top category with smooth controlled movements, minimal sliding and very lame looking driving.

So I tried that too, but still couldn't make much of a difference in times :mad0259: it was way beyond frustrating. I started moding the car, working from the suspension up. A lot of money later, the car felt like a racecar, but my times improved so little that I resolved that the problem was my approach to things.

What I do now is take the first run at medium pace to check all the braking points, next run I go full throttle, slip and slide the car at the wildest possible angles to know the limits of the car in that particular course, and on the subsequent runs I ease off a little bit each run till my times stop improving and get worst, that's when I find the sweet spot of aggressiveness for that particular course, and that keeps me every time in the top 3.

For track racing I go the opposite way, from soft to wild, mostly because the speed is way higher and it would be stupid to start going balls to the wall on the first laps , but the thing is always trying to find a balance between aggressive and smooth driving.

 

[calc]

Then this guy with a stock Suzuki Swift came by and was making the same times as the guys in the top category with smooth controlled movements, minimal sliding and very lame looking driving.

Had a very similar experience with a more "seasoned" member posting times quicker than mine by a second and a half with an older Pontiac vibe that was stock save r comps and self-fabricated sway bars. His advice to me, something that if I got a dollar every time I heard it I could make it to my first club race: the best mod is more seat time. At the same time, if I'm near retirement age and have been auto-crossing a stock vibe for more than five years, quicker times or not, I've missed something in life.

 

[Dynjo]

but the thing is always trying to find a balance between aggressive and smooth driving.

I think that is the key. The OP described himself as "sloth-like". I don't think that is going to cut it if he wants to be competitive!

His buddy is "constantly sawing on the steering wheel", and that sounds sub-optimal as well.

My own progression to the heights of mediocrity went like this...

Step 1. Drive aggressive enough to be on the ragged side
Step 2. At that level of aggressiveness, work on car control to smooth out the ragged edges
Step 3. Once smoothness is attained, amp it up another notch out of the comfort zone into some raggedness
Step 4. Repeat Step 2
Step 5. Repeat Step 3, and so on

For me, each step was about a year (never said I was a fast learner)

It's like any other sport or difficult activity. You have to take yourself out of the comfort zone a little otherwise you will never progress. Anybody can hit a golf ball straight down the fairway if you only give it a little tap. Anybody can play mistake-free piano if you only play Chopsticks. But is that what you really want to do?

Are "good" reactions necessary for race car driving? I think fast reactions can be helpful, but I'd say proper reactions are much more important. Knowing how to detect and correct a wiggle before it turns into a slide is critical, but I don't think it is necessarily a "fast" thing. Same goes for threshold braking and dancing on the edge of the friction circle. For me, it's more about sensitivity and muscle memory than simple hand speed.