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Old 05-24-2008, 02:41 PM   #1
Arin@APR
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The ULTIMATE Water Methanol Injection Thread.

<------------- For those wondering why I didn't have many of these answers on my own, I created this thread long before working for APR. Anyways, read through and enjoy!


After speaking with several people, and seeing the results myself, I’m interested in Water Methanol injection. It’s something I will only consider after I research if I determine it’s worthwhile and safe. While some of my questions may be tuner specific, many and most may not, so I encourage anyone to post any of their findings, experiences or tips. I know next to nothing in this department, so I’m ready to ask hundreds of questions, even if they seem stupid. I rather ask simple questions even if I think I know the answer just to make sure I’m right or wrong.

Vehicle Background:

My vehicle is a US BPY 2007 2.0TFSI GTI w/ DSG. I’m running the APR ED30 K04 kit. I have the S3/ED30 K04 turbocharger, S3/ED30 K04 injectors, Carbonio intake scoop and filter w/ stock air box, and APR’s Intercooler, High Pressure Fuel Pump and Full three inch stealth exhaust with 100 cell catalytic converter. I have 91 octane software, 93 octane software, and 100 octane software which were all tuned using the exact setup described above and in fact were tuned on my car. The final last production tweaks were preformed on an A3 with the exact same components. I currently live in a state which has 93 octane and I plan to run this octane daily.

Questions/Concerns/Thoughts/Ramblings:

1. 100 octane tunes are tuned for every rpm at every load level specifically for 100 octane. If I’m running 93 octane with 50/50 water/meth I’m told this will have many of the same characteristics as running 100 octane fuel, making it apparently ‘safe’ to run the same timing used on a 100 octane tune. If I understand water meth correctly, it’s sprayed and flows at different rates based on maf or boost sensor signals. What happens when I’m cursing on the highway in a low load level situation? If the water/meth is not spraying, I will be running 100 octane tuning/timing with 93 octane fuel. Knock will be rather high if I’m not mistaken. Is this bad? Can this harm the engine? Will the ECU quickly adapt enough to make it safe? Are there any long term disadvantages or detriments to the engine in this situation?

2. Fail safes? What happens if the solution is low, runs out, cuts out, clogs, or a pump dies while driving WOT with a 100 octane tune, 93 octane in the tank? Could this sudden change instantly cause serious issues? What happens if the meth runs or fails when I’m in a situation where I’m completely unable to pull over and switch the program for minutes/miles (assume the worse/longest amount of time/distance)?

3. My quick research has found my first two questions can possibly be addressed by something snow performance calles ‘Safeinjection’, which provides a safe tune for some of the above situations, however it is ‘Temporarily unavailable.” After reading the description, it seems impossible for ME9, and may be why its ‘temporarily unavailable’. Is this true?

4. What mixture has proved to be the best and safest and or most cost effective? Has anyone found a bulk supplier or meth or do most buy pre mixed solutions? Does anyone simply run a specific type of windshield washer fluid? Are the dyes or other detergents in the fluid dangerous to the engine? Can mixed solutions sit for a long period of time if bought in bulk? Does water and methanol separate over long periods of time and require shaking, or agitation? Can/is it easy to contaminate the solution in a dangerous way if mixing it on my own?

5. MAP or MAF controlled or both? What is the proper way to control spraying of the solution? When should it turn on, and how much? How should I determine nozzle sizes, number of nozzle, position and locations of nozzle and pump size?

6. What are my options in terms of manufacturers of complete kits? I’m currently only aware of snow performance. Does anyone have any technical data to support why they would use one kit over another?

7. Consumption rates. The basic HOW LONG will a gallon of water/meth last question. Assuming this can loosely be based on the rate of gasoline consumption on a typical day, how long can I expect the mixture to last? Will be become a troublesome burden rather quickly? Will I constantly find myself ordering ‘boost juice’ online? Do people typically turn off w/m and run a 93 octane tune during commutes and only turn it on in the evening for spirited drives, or jump over to w/m and a 100 octane file for weekend fun? Can and will there be substantial benefits or problems running water/meth on a 93 octane tune? Would there be a problem if I ran a 93 octane tune and flipped a switch to activate my water meth while driving if I suddenly rob a bank and need extra powerz?

8. Does w/m increase or decrease engine wear in any way that one would consider ‘substantial’?

9. Is fuel consumption greatly impacted positively or negatively by running a 100 octane tune w/ 93 and water meth, especially in low load no meth situations w/ the increase knock activity?

10. Real world costs of water/meth. Has anyone ditched the setup all together after spending hundreds upon hundreds for the mixture? Do you find the costs adding up quickly making the extra power unjustifiable?

11. Monitoring. What should I log and how should I log from time to time to verify everything is healthy? What should I look for?

At any rate, It’s clear to see I have many concerns, which may or may not be an issue. Hopefully there are a few out there who can lend a hand and hopefully the information will be useful for anyone else considering water/meth!

Thanks! :lips:

Last edited by Arin@APR; 07-30-2010 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 05-24-2008, 04:45 PM   #2
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My last car was a daily driver, 5.7L GTO with Vortech supercharger a few bolt-ons and alky. I worked with the R&D engineer at Magnaflow where the car was tuned. We tuned the car to run on 91 with spray turning on at 4psi (running only 9.5psi max). These have progressive controllers that start at a threshold (psi) you determine and the spray increases as the boost goes up. You are also able to adjust how fast the alky ramps up. You can also run larger, smaller, multiple nozzles depending on what you are trying to do.

Again we essentially tuned the car to use the increased cooling and increased octane the alky provides but we kept it safe by not tuning it so far out the computer could not compensate (retard timing) if the alky failed. In the case of the GTO you can actually buy the software that would be the equivelant of what GIAC or REVO would use to tune and dial in things to your best advantage. Using a fixed tune like GIAC or other you are limited but using alky will still net you some nice benefits.

The increased cooling will provide a more dense charge (more oxygen per cubic inch) and straight alky is about 120 octane or so and will provide great assistance in preventing pre-ignition (knock) so you will get the most out of your existing tune on the top end where pre-ignition and heat usually start and timing is pulled back etc.

Using alky to run 100 octane tune when you are only running 93 octane in the tank seems way too risky to me. To do that you would probably have to pump quite a bit of straight alky, which is also a fuel in a big way in this scenario. If it fails just as you are really in it, that would put you into a lean condition which is where things can go kaboom in an instant.

I think you will see benefits from simply running an alky system with 93 in the tank and running your 93 octane tune without putting your motor at risk. Most of these tunes respond well when you run higher octane fuel. That is how I essentially ran my GTO for 3 years of daily driving. The alky really helped. FYI there are other systems out there besides the Snow system but Snow is porpular, so is Devils Own, Cooling Mist, Aquamist, and the one I used Alkycontrol. I recommend you use straight methanol which can usually be purchased in 5 gal tins from larger motorcycle shops or places that support karting. Last year I bought a tin and it was under 50.00.

By having it tuned the way I described you only use alky when you get to a certain boost level so in normal driving you use very little unless you are in max boost over and over. It is much like having higher octane fuel just when you need it. It was a great mod for me. Be sure that whatever kit you get that the pump is certified for running 100% alky, not all of them will hold up to straight methanol, the diaphragm will fail eventually.

Alky works VERY well and of course you can verify by using a dyno. Various systems have various options like gauges or indicator lights to confirm there is alky, it is spraying etc. Also an A/F ratio gauge will certainly give a big clue if things are running safely. Various brands have various options look at them all but it doesn't have to be really fancy it just has to work CONSISTENTLY and reliably.

Last edited by GIACUser; 05-24-2008 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 05-25-2008, 04:06 AM   #3
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subscribed. very interested in everything Arin asked.

My biggest concern seems to be the same as Arins. is teh 100oct tune really needed? Will it run just fine with, and still perform well, on a 93oct tune? Such as what I have. Revo stg 2.
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Old 05-25-2008, 05:16 AM   #4
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I knew a guy back in Ohio that had built a crazy Evo IX MR... something like 800 WHP.

One day on the highway, his meth cut for a split second and boom, there went his engine.



I'd really like to get a water/meth kit, but there's really not that much information about it floating around. Risks, failures, gains, ect... all I ever hear on this website is... Phil@BSH made 22 WHP!
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:21 AM   #5
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Arin, it seems we both registered for the Snow Performance forum. Here's some stuff I found that was interestingly informative.

Quote:
From User SnowTech.4

Being a dubber myself, it's nice to see more VAG guys getting interested in water/methanol injection.

There is no reason not to use water/methanol everyday. Water/methanol cools combustion, reduces the chance of detonation, and helps de-carbonize the motor. This reduces wear and tear and increases longevity.

Unfortunately the information you've picked up concerning non-injection periods is incorrect... at least for a Volkswagen. The 2.0T uses a very advanced engine management system. It is constantly monitoring numerous engine operating outputs so it knows what is happening at any one moment. If the ECU detects sustained detonation/knock it will pull timing advance and eventually dump boost. This is well known in the dub world as "limp mode". So, any time there is a loss of injection the ECU will protect your engine. The only time this wouldn't happen is if the knock monitoring function of the ECU were disabled or if you were running stand alone engine management.

A Snow Performance Boost Cooler will allow you to run your 100 octane tune without having to actually use 100 octane race gas. You can expect to make simliar power numbers as to what using 100 octane race gas would get you plus 5-10% more because of a cooler aircharge and more detonation suppressant.

We have a 2.0T specific kit and I recommend you use it for the best performance possible. The part number is 20012 2.0T FSI and the kit retails for $439. You'd more than likely use our 225 nozzle. You can add in a switch however any time you turn the system off you'll have to change back to your 93 octane tune. You current mods will compliment our system very well.

If you're having clutch problems now they definitely won't be getting better once you start making more power. Sounds like you'll be getting a water/methanol kit and clutch combo package.

Nate
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:29 AM   #6
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I wonder if I can run meth, with my 91 octane tune.........cuz I definitely want to
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:53 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by 2nd Life View Post
I wonder if I can run meth, with my 91 octane tune.........cuz I definitely want to
I do. All day everyday...with the GT30 as well
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:53 PM   #8
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Copied from Vortex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arin
You took some time to write this Arin! I will gladly participate and thank you for linking me.

Questions/Concerns/Thoughts/Ramblings:

1. 100 octane tunes are tuned for every rpm at every load level specifically for 100 octane. If I’m running 93 octane with 50/50 water/meth I’m told this will have many of the same characteristics as running 100 octane fuel, making it apparently ‘safe’ to run the same timing used on a 100 octane tune. If I understand water meth correctly, it’s sprayed and flows at different rates based on maf or boost sensor signals. What happens when I’m cursing on the highway in a low load level situation? If the water/meth is not spraying, I will be running 100 octane tuning/timing with 93 octane fuel. Knock will be rather high if I’m not mistaken. Is this bad? Can this harm the engine? Will the ECU quickly adapt enough to make it safe? Are there any long term disadvantages or detriments to the engine in this situation?

While cruising engine load is very low and ignition timing is already highly advanced for fuel economy. Running a 100 octane program does not change this at all. Knock doesn't occur solely based of timing ( in normal situation where you haven't done something beyond stupid) other factors like load, heat cylinder pressure also factor into the presence of knock. You will not experience an increase in knock while cruising.

2. Fail safes? What happens if the solution is low, runs out, cuts out, clogs, or a pump dies while driving WOT with a 100 octane tune, 93 octane in the tank? Could this sudden change instantly cause serious issues? What happens if the meth runs or fails when I’m in a situation where I’m completely unable to pull over and switch the program for minutes/miles (assume the worse/longest amount of time/distance)?

If for any reason injection is not available, just drive like a sane person until you can switch programs. More info on this on your next question.

3. My quick research has found my first two questions can possibly be addressed by something snow performance calles ‘Safeinjection’, which provides a safe tune for some of the above situations, however it is ‘Temporarily unavailable.” After reading the description, it seems impossible for ME9, and may be why its ‘temporarily unavailable’. Is this true?

Its unavailable for manufacturing reasons, however you are correct in that this does not apply to ME9, or ME7 for that matter. Snow also has a boost only based system that will cut boost, however we already have that. Our ECM will already VERY quickly cut boost and timing to protect the motor. I know this first hand as I had line slip out of the connector once (my bad) immediately I noticed a loss in performance, followed shortly by a soft limp mode. This is with a highly advanced setup, GT30 turbo, and 91 octane gas. I often think this motor wont let me kill it :laugh:

4. What mixture has proved to be the best and safest and or most cost effective? Has anyone found a bulk supplier or meth or do most buy pre mixed solutions? Does anyone simply run a specific type of windshield washer fluid? Are the dyes or other detergents in the fluid dangerous to the engine? Can mixed solutions sit for a long period of time if bought in bulk? Does water and methanol separate over long periods of time and require shaking, or agitation? Can/is it easy to contaminate the solution in a dangerous way if mixing it on my own?

I typically start everyone out with boost juice. This lets them get a feel for the kit without having to decide to make their own or how they want to go about it etc. From there its common for people to start mixing their own 50/50 blend. Ive experimented with 60/40 etc and I have always come back to 50/50. I do not recommend window washer fluid ever. You do not want soaps and dyes being injected into your engine. Mixed solutions can sit for a long time as long as they are SEALED. Water and methanol will evaporate. If it sits for a bit just shake it up and your good. As long as you have clean surroundings, contamination isn't a concern. Dont use the same funnel you use for oil changes ;)

5. MAP or MAF controlled or both? What is the proper way to control spraying of the solution? When should it turn on, and how much? How should I determine nozzle sizes, number of nozzle, position and locations of nozzle and pump size?

I prefer MAF for the smaller turbos (GT28 and smaller) and MAP to the larger turbos (GT30 and beyond). MAF follows the amount of incoming air which rises with engine speed, boost however drops with engine speed on smaller turbos limiting the amount of injection you can get in the higher rpm. You want it to turn on just before the onset of knock and spray the least amount possible to avoid knock. This is done with vag com monitoring. General rule of thumb, Stage 1 cars get the 175 ml/h nozzle from snow, stage 2, 2+ and most K04 cars go with the 225 ml/h and the BT cars go with the 375 ml/h. Standard 150 psi Snow Performance pump is all you need. Location is within 18" of the throttle (closer is fine) with as few bends as possible.

6. What are my options in terms of manufacturers of complete kits? I’m currently only aware of snow performance. Does anyone have any technical data to support why they would use one kit over another?

Snow I think is the ideal kit for the VW community and it is why we support them. They are a bit cheaper then the middle of the road in terms of price, offer top quality components and a wide range of upgrades. Snow is the only one of the methanol injection companies that actively participates in the VW community and offers a lifetime warranty on its components. Snow to my knowledge is also the only company to offer an MAF specific controller for the 2.0T. The other MAF kits can only read the signal from the 1.8T style mafs.

7. Consumption rates. The basic HOW LONG will a gallon of water/meth last question. Assuming this can loosely be based on the rate of gasoline consumption on a typical day, how long can I expect the mixture to last? Will be become a troublesome burden rather quickly? Will I constantly find myself ordering ‘boost juice’ online? Do people typically turn off w/m and run a 93 octane tune during commutes and only turn it on in the evening for spirited drives, or jump over to w/m and a 100 octane file for weekend fun? Can and will there be substantial benefits or problems running water/meth on a 93 octane tune? Would there be a problem if I ran a 93 octane tune and flipped a switch to activate my water meth while driving if I suddenly rob a bank and need extra powerz?

No problems from running it on 93 octane. You will actually make some good power on that setup. The nozzle sizes tell you all need to know, a 175/mlh nozzle will spray 175 milliliters of fluid for every hour of use. How much you use depends solely on you. I NEVER turn it off, I love it to much and get cranky without the extra power. I mix my own methanol so dont think I have some lifetime boost juice supply...although that would be nice and I know your reading this! :laugh:

8. Does w/m increase or decrease engine wear in any way that one would consider ‘substantial’?

Water/Methanol injection has an added benefit of cleaning out the internals of the engine as it is vaporized. This is a HUGE benefit to the 2.0T as these cars have tons of issues with oil blow by.

9. Is fuel consumption greatly impacted positively or negatively by running a 100 octane tune w/ 93 and water meth, especially in low load no meth situations w/ the increase knock activity?

Methanol is a fuel, you will actually get an increase in your gas MPG while running it. Typical reports are 2-3 mpg

10. Real world costs of water/meth. Has anyone ditched the setup all together after spending hundreds upon hundreds for the mixture? Do you find the costs adding up quickly making the extra power unjustifiable?

You should know what this costs. 2 gallons of 50/50 mix costs me $3.64. $3 per gallon of pure methanol, $.64 for a gallon of distilled water. This lasts me about a month of normal driving. To reach the hundreds and hundreds mark...well you do the math.

11. Monitoring. What should I log and how should I log from time to time to verify everything is healthy? What should I look for?

Block 020, and blocks 015, 016. Block 020 is your timing pull, blocks 015 and 016 are your misfires. In 020 0 pull is proffered but below 5 is considered fine. Ignition is hugely important part of this system and you want to make sure your plugs and coil packs are up to snuff.
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Old 05-25-2008, 09:00 PM   #9
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:05 PM   #10
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excellent question arin and excellent answers phil :)

thats why i love this place, i want to get this kit for my leon
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Old 05-26-2008, 01:14 AM   #11
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so Phil. you're saying it's safe to run W/M on a 91oct tune?

I have revo and am curious if I have to change my settings for the higher octane all the time or if I can leave them alone.
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Old 05-26-2008, 01:59 AM   #12
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so Phil. you're saying it's safe to run W/M on a 91oct tune?

I have revo and am curious if I have to change my settings for the higher octane all the time or if I can leave them alone.

All day everyday. I run Revo as well and have advanced the timing to take advantage of the W/M. Ive run this setup for over a year now, first on the stock turbo and now on the GT30.

-Phill
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:03 AM   #13
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doesn't changing the timing settings with Revo make it a 100oct tune in the 4-6 range?
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:06 AM   #14
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doesn't changing the timing settings with Revo make it a 100oct tune in the 4-6 range?
Depending on other conditions thats about right. Im running T6 on the GT30.
Its 400 base hp GTO with headers and intake fast...dont ask me how I know
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:11 AM   #15
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you know. I was kinda scared by the idea of water/meth the past couple days. the more I read, the more I see how awesome it is both for performance and the health of the engine. as long as you're not a complete retard and don't try to max everything out all there time..... this seems to be one of the most cost effective mods out there.

do you think it's a lack of knowledge about the system that keeps people from doing it? The fact that not many people do it is the only thing that concerns me at this point.
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VDubVirus View Post
you know. I was kinda scared by the idea of water/meth the past couple days. the more I read, the more I see how awesome it is both for performance and the health of the engine. as long as you're not a complete retard and don't try to max everything out all there time..... this seems to be one of the most cost effective mods out there.

do you think it's a lack of knowledge about the system that keeps people from doing it? The fact that not many people do it is the only thing that concerns me at this point.
You get it. As far as the MKV goes, you have to do something beyond stupid to hurt it. Lack of knowledge is a huge concern on the forums, in reality we've sold quite a few of these kits to VW owners across the world. Most of these people are not into the forum scene and see what it is, trust the vendor, and do it. Then they tell me how much fun it is.
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:16 AM   #17
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you say that as if I haven't already been charged on my CC for it
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:31 AM   #18
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What's the install like on one of these kits? Maint other than filling up?
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:02 AM   #19
Pnguyen1028
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Concerning water/meth's abilities to steam clean the engine internals?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3790396

There are comments about using meth in the early stages of the engine being more beneficial. JC@Douglas said he had 18k on the pistons before water/meth and 3k after.
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Old 06-14-2008, 06:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnguyen1028 View Post


Concerning water/meth's abilities to steam clean the engine internals?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3790396

There are comments about using meth in the early stages of the engine being more beneficial. JC@Douglas said he had 18k on the pistons before water/meth and 3k after.
Shouldn't the fact that we use premium gas (more additives) keep our engines clean internally?
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by icetraxx View Post
Shouldn't the fact that we use premium gas (more additives) keep our engines clean internally?
Not really - the problem with our engines is mostly on the intake valve stems, where oil vapor circulated through the front PCV bakes on to the valves. Buildup on the valve stems can cause misfires, and in the case of extreme buildup the valves won't seal properly. Since fuel in the FSI engine is directly injected into the combustion chamber, the fuel never touches the intake runners or valve stems.

Application of Seafoam or water/methanol injection is purported to clean the carbon buildup from these problem areas.

I'm glad to see this thread alive again

Chris
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:19 PM   #22
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How to mix your own 50/50 water methanol at home

Posting this here since this is the "ULTIMATE" Water Methanol thread. :D

Here is how I mix and store a 10 gallon water methanol supply.

Supplies Needed:

#1. A 5 Gallon Gasoline Jug with a good flexible spout.


#2. 5 Gallons of Straight Methanol/Alcohol. I used Sunoco brand currently here in FL @ $5.99 per gallon plus tax.

#3. 5 Gallons of Distilled Water. I got mine WinDixie brand currently @ .89 cents per gallon plus tax.


#4 A 5 Gallon Water Jug with a good seal for reusing.


#5 A cool dry place in your house to store 2 5 gallon jugs away from any possible heat or electrical wires. I put mine in the waster/dryer room where it's nice and cool and dark most of the time.


- Start by observing the exact point where they topped off the methanol in your gasoline jug. Find the mid point of the 5 gallons by marking where exactly on the 2.5 gallon line you need to be at. Some times they give you a bit extra so you want to pour out just above the 2.5 mark.



- Pour out 2.5 gallons of Methanol into the empty 5 gallon water jug.

- Pour in 2.5 gallons of distilled water into the 5 gallon water jug. It should now be pretty clost to the rim as it was when normally filled. Becarefull not to spill anything as it will affect the way it looks at the end when filled.

- Pour in 2.5 gallons of distilled water into the 5 gallon gasoline jug. It too should now be marked at 5 gallons.

Congratulations you now have made yourself a nice stock pile of water methanol mixed at 50/50. Now it may not be to the exact teaspoon and you really don't need to be that anal about it. Just use precaution when working with Methanol as it burns and you won't even see a flame. Kind of like putting a cigarette lighter to bacardi 151. :laugh:

I am now thinking of adding some sort of manual pump to the 5 gallon jug to make it easy to take fluid from there and into my car's reservoirs.
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