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Old 09-10-2012, 12:52 PM   #1
the bruce
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Exclamation SWAY BAR DIMENSIONS and discussion


1.

I collected the most interesting sway bar specs that can be used on both
Mk.V and Mk.VI GTI (FWD) and R32/R (4-motion):



car model/manufacturer, front bar dia x wall thickness, rear bar x wall thickness


stock (most are hollow, see wall thickness):


standard Golf/TDI/A3: 21.7x3.0 or 22.5x.3.5 / 18.5x2.5 or 19.6x2.6 or 20.7x2.8

Scirocco: 21.7x3.0 or 22.5x.3.5 / 20.7x2.8 or 21.7x3.0

TT-RS quattro: 22 mm solid / 18.5 x 2.5 mm

A3 Ambition/S-Line: 22,5 x 3,5 / 20,7 x 2,8 (FWD)

Golf V GTI: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,0

Golf V R32: 22,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,0 (4-motion)

Golf VI GTI: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,0 PR-0BF or 21,7 x 3,6 PR-0BM (DCC?)

Golf VI R: 22,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,6 (4-motion)

Scirocco R: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,6

Touran 170 PS: 23,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,0

Passat R36: 23,6 solid / 21,7 x 3,6 (4-motion)

Sharan 2011 on: 24.0 mm solid / 20.0 mm solid



after market (almost all are solid):


H&R TT Quattro: 24 / 22 mm incl. TT-RS

H&R 'small': 26 / 22 mm

Eibach AntiRoll: 26 / 23 mm

KW clubsport: 26 / 23 mm (made by Eibach)

VW Racing: 26 / 23 mm (made by Eibach, discontinued)

ECS: 26 / 23 mm

H&R 'big': 28 / 24 mm (AWE used to sell also a H&R 28 mm rear bar)

H&R 4-motion/Quattro: 24 / 26 mm

034Motorsport: 25.4 mm rear only

Autotech: 25 / 25 mm (tube/hollow; reliability issues)

Whiteline: 24 / 24 mm (3-way adjustable)

Neuspeed: 25 / 25 mm (tube/hollow; also 28 mm rear avail.; reliability issues)

BFI/Stabila: -- / 25 mm rear only (different version for FWD and AWD)

Hotchkis: 27 / 27 mm (tube/hollow)

APR: 27 / 27 mm (tube/hollow; made by Hotchkis)

BSH: -- / 27 mm (3-way) rear only


I don't know if Autotech and Neuspeed do come from the same manufacturer.
Suspiciously both share the same dimensions and similar reliability probs.


2.

I also compared several arm length ratios:



Eibach front 26 mm: 190 and 210 mm
Eibach rear 23 mm: 160 and 175 mm

H&R front 28 mm: 198 and 218 mm
H&R rear 24 mm: 140 and 160 mm

Whiteline front 24 mm: 199, 217 and 235 mm
Whiteline rear 24 mm: 205, 215 and 225 mm


There are some differences, particularly on rear. The H&R are shortest, Whiteline are longest.
Keep in mind H&R kits come with a bigger front bar, so this matches the different arm lengths.


3.

Last not least, an example of sway bar rates:


This is the sway bar stiffness in N/mm.


short arm vs. long arm


- stock front sway bar Mk.V/VI GTI, diameter 23,6 x 3,5 mm - tube:

c = 65,6 N/mm

- H&R front sway bar, diameter 28 mm - solid:

c = 172 N/mm center (~ 156 N/mm long and 188 N/mm short arm)


- stock rear sway bar Mk.V/VI GTI, dia 21,7 x 3 mm - tube:

c = 59,5 N/mm

- H&R rear sway bar, diameter. 24 mm - solid:

c = 122,7 N/mm center (~ 109 N/mm long and 139 N/mm short arm)


Obviously the rear H&R doubles the torsional resistance, the front H&R even is 2.5 to
almost 3 times stiffer.

Used together with common coilovers body roll should be only half as much compared
to stock at the same cornering speed.


Stiffness Specs of 2013 VWR sway bars (but still no proved data on diameter):

VWRPA014A:
1. 56.4N/mm; +32%
2. 69.1N/mm; +44%
3. 86.5N/mm; +55%

VWRPA015B:
1. 50.2N/mm; +9%
2. 66.9N/mm; +31%
3. 93.4N/mm; +51%

VWRPA014B:
1. 88.2N/mm; +46%
2. 116.9N/mm; +59%
3. 161.7N/mm; +70%


The % seem a little bit confusing when proved data states the stock GTI sways
already are 65,6 N/mm front and 59,5 N/mm rear.




Uprated sway bares used together with common coilovers, body roll
should be only half as much compared to stock at the same cornering
speed.



Why I don't recommend fitting a bigger rear sway while leaving the front
one stock:


Bear in mind a GTI's sway bar rates are 65,6 N/mm front and 59,5 N/mm
rear, which equals a 52:48 % ratio, while the weight distribution is 60:40.

In some way we could conclude stock sways already are rear biased !!!

Ok, this is just half the truth. While the GTI's rear sway bar ist still stiffer in
relation to the weight, this isn't necessarily true for roll stiffness, as the roll
center ist also an equally significiant factor. And yes, roll centers aren't same
height front and rear. Unfortunately reliable data is hard to obtain.

However, while a too-stiff rear sway might give you funny turning at lower
speeds and narrow corners, it will also cause dangerous high-speed oversteer.

DO NOT TAKE ANY RISK - THIS IS NO JOKE, DUDES !!!!





http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/BL-281.pdf

http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/010barup.pdf
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:43 AM   #2
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Nice!
Do you happen to have the specs for the Golf V 2.0tdi 4Motion as well?
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Old 09-11-2012, 10:23 AM   #3
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Bruce:

H and R for "4 motion" A3 quattro is 24 mm F 26 mm R, and MKV R32:

Sway Bar Front, Adj. 2 hole 24mm Adj. 70220 $329.00
Sway Bar Rear, Adj. 2 hole 26mm Adj. 71220 $299.00

This is from HR website, and also I have HR 26mm Rear on my car, so I can confirm.

S

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Old 09-11-2012, 10:59 AM   #4
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Thumbs up

THX, you're right !!




Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Motioner View Post
Nice!
Do you happen to have the specs for the Golf V 2.0tdi 4Motion as well?

Sadly I don't have the stock specs. Guess it will be in the 21-22 mm area on front and
18.X-21 mm on rear. Currently my ETKA isn't working.

Same aftermarket sways applicable as R32 though. 24/26 mm will be a big improvement.
The TDI 4-motion has a similar drivetrain and gearbox as the R32 and Mk.VI R.
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:33 PM   #5
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FYI: AWE doesn't appear to be listing their H&R rear 28mm anti-roll bar anymore.

http://www.awe-tuning.com/products/v...aybar-251.html
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:56 PM   #6
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I changed the chart, THX!
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:55 AM   #7
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Some thoughts about different front sway bar diameters:


By using the Whiteline chart derived from 28 mm and assuming same arm length
the 26 mm H&R should be extremely close to these specs:


- stock GTI front sway: dia 23,6 x 3,5 mm - tube

c = 65,6 N/mm


- H&R front sway: dia 28 mm - solid

c = 172 N/mm center (~ 156 N/mm long and ~ 188 N/mm short arm)


- H&R front sway: dia 26 mm - solid

c = 127 N/mm center (~ 115 N/mm long and ~ 139 N/mm short arm)



You will easily recognize the 28 mm is even when set to soft slightly stiffer than
the 26 mm set to stiff. I think you won't feel this marginal difference though.
I strongly believe you won't feel if you run a 26 mm set to stiff or the 28 mm set
to soft.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:23 PM   #8
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I got a PM asking about front sway bars and my answer might be of general interest:


I know many guys recommend a rear sway only, but I strongly believe they are wrong.
I tried it all on my own: stock sways, 24 mm rear and 28 + 24 mm front and rear with
all possible settings. No doubt both bars was best by far.
Possibly most guys never tried both bars and they parrot half-whisdom on the forums.
A common misconception I believe.

A front sway will reduce overall roll much more than the rear sway, improve steering
(in feel and quicker), turn in and make you car feel more stable. On the other hand it
slightly affects traction on bad roads, but not necessarily on good ones. I was wonde-
ring my self that I didn't have any increase in understeer. I even prefer the stiff setting
of the 28 mm front bar.

To make things short: If you already have a 24 mm rear sway I strongly recommend
at least a 24, 25 or 26 mm front sway bar.


We were talking about this already here:

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120841


Feel free to ask any questions, fellows !!
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:25 PM   #9
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Is anyone interested in 28 + 26 mm sways made by H&R?
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:57 PM   #10
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Broken BSH rear sway bars:

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53673

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39843

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=357833

Fortunately they didn't do a front sway bar. A failing front sway would
cause snap oversteer.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:33 PM   #11
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Stiffness Specs of 2013 VWR sway bars:

VWRPA014A:
1. 56.4N/mm; +32%
2. 69.1N/mm; +44%
3. 86.5N/mm; +55%

VWRPA015B:
1. 50.2N/mm; +9%
2. 66.9N/mm; +31%
3. 93.4N/mm; +51%

VWRPA014B:
1. 88.2N/mm; +46%
2. 116.9N/mm; +59%
3. 161.7N/mm; +70%
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:41 PM   #12
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:19 PM   #13
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Thumbs up

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Old 03-21-2013, 07:39 PM   #14
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You guess what?





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Old 03-21-2013, 10:45 PM   #15
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magnetic ride anti roll bar. thats too cool for school. me want.

I think i read somewhere the new 911 has the same concept, but the hydraulics are in the links, not the torsion bar segment.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:17 AM   #16
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One electrically decoupleable sway bar (for 4WD applications) and an active one (for SUVs).
Porsche Cayenne, BMW X5 and X6 come with optional active sway bars.

Remember many SUVs usually have huge sway bars of 40 mm and more due to their high center
of gravity. Normally this leds to increased "copying" of the road surface which passengers feel as
they sit high in these cars. An active sway bar is soft in straight direction while hard in corners.

You're right - the 991 Carrera comes with "Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control (PDCC)", a similar
active sway bar system.
BTW, the new 991 GT3 even has an active rear steering giving some "toe out" in tight corners
and increased "toe in" at higher speeds.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
K-Sport Front endlink spec

Rod Diameter 16mm - Stock 10mm

Total length 305mm-355mm - Stock 335mm

about 20mm/0.8 inch up or down


Whiteline:


front: ~ 330 - 355 mm:


rear: ~ 107 - 143 mm:
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:42 PM   #18
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If I add a stock GTI sway bar to my stock Rabbit MKV, will I feel much of a difference or would I be much better off w/ a 24mm aftermarket model?
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirJW View Post
If I add a stock GTI sway bar to my stock Rabbit MKV, will I feel much of a difference or would I be much better off w/ a 24mm aftermarket model?
With the Whiteline solid adjustable bars selling for $215 shipped via amazon, why bother with anything less?

FWIW, if anyone in Utah (or las vegas, I guess, since I'm going to Wuste) for some reason wants my stock GTI sway bars, you can have 'em. The front ones will be missing the brackets and bushings - since the Whiteline front sway is installed using the factory brackets. Otherwise I'm just throwing them into my buddy's recycling pile. I know a guy who collects steel until he gets around a ton piled up and then loads it up and sells it.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timpanogos Slim View Post
With the Whiteline solid adjustable bars selling for $215 shipped via amazon, why bother with anything less?

FWIW, if anyone in Utah (or las vegas, I guess, since I'm going to Wuste) for some reason wants my stock GTI sway bars, you can have 'em. The front ones will be missing the brackets and bushings - since the Whiteline front sway is installed using the factory brackets. Otherwise I'm just throwing them into my buddy's recycling pile. I know a guy who collects steel until he gets around a ton piled up and then loads it up and sells it.
I have a leed on a new one for $20. Is it worth changing it or just wait and buy the real thing like you said.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:56 PM   #21
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Front or rear?
First find out what sway bars are fitted from factory.
Bear in mind the front sway bar is a pain to change.
Rear bar is quite easy (some did it just on jck stands).
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Old 06-10-2013, 12:36 PM   #22
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So yesterday i moved the end links on my FSB (aforementioned 24mm solid whiteline 3-way adjustable) from "soft" to "hard".

And i think i prefer it, but I've only done about 130 miles on the combo so far.

I think worries about increased understeer are overblown. And i should have just bought the APR set of 2 bars that Summit Racing is selling for like $350, but i'm not disappointed with my Whitelines - I just realize now that i could have saved like $75.
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