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Rear Sway Bar Thread (stock springs and dampers)

Mikes08GTI

vroom *brap* vroom *brap*
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Car(s)
2011 CSG GTI 4-Door
Innnnnnnnteresting. I've always found the car to handle pretty neutral from the factory. On a track I know well I'll often run 2 or 3 lbs more pressure in the rear, allowing for an easily controllable over-steer situation when I want it. Did you ever experiment with tire pressures before affixing the RSB?

The stock MkV wasn't that bad in terms of understeer, but the BSH bar really helps to keep the understeering to a minimum, so long as I set my corner up properly:lol:
 

Mikes08GTI

vroom *brap* vroom *brap*
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Car(s)
2011 CSG GTI 4-Door
I'm using the Autotech 24 rear hollow bar as well, its fine. I like it in the middle setting. At full stiff the car is scary and unpredictable at the track. Middle is just right.

Really? I've found my rear end to be very predictable and stable with my full-stiff BSH bar.
 

Dynjo

Ready to race!
Location
Chicagoland
In my experience, a car never ONLY understeers, nor does one ONLY oversteer. Even a "perfectly balanced" car will either understeer or oversteer depending on the situation.

Oversteer is much, much harder to control, especially for those who do not have much exposure to its ugliness. Therefore, the OEM's tend calibrate the chassis so that it is almost impossible to get into oversteer. This means the car will almost always push, sometimes a lot.

My definition of a "balanced" car is one that oversteers as often as it understeers. On average, it is balanced. This does mean that in certain circumstances, it will oversteer, sometimes A LOT (i.e. spin). It is then up to the skill of the driver to avoid creating the oversteer-inducing circumstances or to handle it if it happens. Sporty cars, like ours, generally are calibrated more toward "balanced", away from "always understeers".

My GTI is bone stock, and it normally pushes, sometimes badly. After a couple of track days, I was searching for the fattest rear bar on the planet. However, I changed my mind after a couple of ass-puckering incidents. Both were similar circumstances, but on different tracks. These were fast, right-left transitions, one was in the wet. I think what went wrong is that I somehow lifted off the gas just prior the transition, and that is a big no-no in an FWD car. I remember thinking Whoa! This car CAN oversteer!

So now my thinking is more about how to reduce understeer by using a little trail braking or carrying more speed in the first half of the corner as opposed to getting that fat bar.
 
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GTICrazy90

Ready to race!
Location
chino hills, CA
In my experience, a car never ONLY understeers, nor does one ONLY oversteer. Even a "perfectly balanced" car will either understeer or oversteer depending on the situation.

Oversteer is much, much harder to control, especially for those who do not have much exposure to its ugliness. Therefore, the OEM's tend calibrate the chassis so that it is almost impossible to get into oversteer. This means the car will almost always push, sometimes a lot.

My definition of a "balanced" car is one that oversteers as often as it understeers. On average, it is balanced. This does mean that in certain circumstances, it will oversteer, sometimes A LOT (i.e. spin). It is then up to the skill of the driver to avoid creating the oversteer-inducing circumstances or to handle it if it happens. Sporty cars, like ours, generally are calibrated more toward "balanced", away from "always understeers".

My GTI is bone stock, and it normally pushes, sometimes badly. After a couple of track days, I was searching for the fattest rear bar on the planet. However, I changed my mind after a couple of ass-puckering incidents. Both were similar circumstances, but on different tracks. These were fast, right-left transitions, one was in the wet. I think what went wrong is that I somehow lifted off the gas just prior the transition, and that is a big no-no in an FWD car. I remember thinking Whoa! This car CAN oversteer!

So now my thinking is more about how to reduce understeer by using a little trail braking or carrying more speed in the first half of the corner as opposed to getting that fat bar.


The first thing to fix the problem is to improve your driving :thumbsup:

then once you have pushed stock to its limit and can drive it around a track very well, that is when you look for upgrades imo. That is how I plan on attacking this. I dont plan on cutting times by putting in a whole bunch of mods. First I will try to lower as much as I can with my driving.
 

BlueAHR32

Autocross Champion
Location
Illinois
The first thing to fix the problem is to improve your driving :thumbsup:

then once you have pushed stock to its limit and can drive it around a track very well, that is when you look for upgrades imo. That is how I plan on attacking this. I dont plan on cutting times by putting in a whole bunch of mods. First I will try to lower as much as I can with my driving.

Except doing a track day on stock fluid and pads is just stupid. Besides that start out stock.
 

GodSquadMandrake

Radioactive Rotary Rocket
Location
Minneapolis
The first thing to fix the problem is to improve your driving :thumbsup:

then once you have pushed stock to its limit and can drive it around a track very well, that is when you look for upgrades imo. That is how I plan on attacking this. I dont plan on cutting times by putting in a whole bunch of mods. First I will try to lower as much as I can with my driving.

That's what everyone says and I understand it is wise logic for a truly novice driver who has never had any kind of experience. But this isn't my first car or my first rodeo. I knew stock wouldn't be enough for me before I even drove it off the dealership parking lot so I already had a stack of bolt-ons waiting at the house. Plus it's a FWD car. They are so EASY to drive fast and on the limit. The worst thing that happens if you give it too much throttle is understeer and then you just back off and tighten the line up again. My RX7 is 100x harder to drive because it has snap oversteer. If you give it too much gas it sticks up to the very limit and then the rear end just snaps out with only a milliseconds warning. To add to the problem you have the extremely peaky power band of the rotary engine. You can mash the pedal all day long under 4,000 RPM but after that you gotta be careful because you don't know when the dynamic chamber on the intake manifold opens (vacuum actuated) and then suddenly more power puts you in a spin. Then entering a corner if you don't rev match exactly you get shift lock and the rear end is skidding. That car is a pain to drive fast, but I love it!

Ok even if it's not FWD what about the old VW's with solid rear beams that loved to lift one tire? If you got oversteer in a MK2 it was a slide and you couldn't just reel it in with a little gas normally. If the tail is out, it's out to stay. The IRS on the MKV is so easy to control, just a little gas and it tucks back in.

Or what about Subaru's? I love the AWD and I'm not saying it's hard to drive, but to push it to the limit is more difficult than any FWD car. Finding that balance between understeer and oversteer is much more difficult because you have the characteristic of FWD and RWD in one. Especially if you don't have the diffs, bushings, and chassis bracing set up right transferring the weight to get the car to do what you want takes more thought, effort and technique.

Bikes are on their own level, totally different than a car.

I'm just saying a MKV is an easy car to drive with low limits overall. The understeer is more controllable and it has less power than other competitors in it's class like the SRT-4 and the MS3. But that's why I love it, it's a perfectly fun daily driver and not annoying like a track car. Who here actually goes to track events? I know some of you do, but everyone talks about it like they go every weekend. There isn't a track within 2,000 miles of me! Even when I lived in MN the only track is BIR and they don't do wheel to wheel racing. You can do lap days but even then in the expert class you're not allowed to pass in corners, only on straights and you can't be aggressive. That's not competitive because you're only competing against yourself. And it costs a ton. The best driving I ever get is RallyX and AutoX, but that's still not racing. The only real racing that will ever be available to me in my regions is Rally America stage rallies but very few people do that because it costs at least $3,000 per event to compete. I'm building my Subaru for it just because I love rally and it's my dream, but realistically I'll never be racing wheel to wheel in the MKV.
 

ja-gti

Rollin'
Location
Hello Cleveland!
I've had the BSH 27mm "monster" RSB for 2000 miles and one Mid-Ohio track day. Otherwise stock suspension. Sooo much better this time at the track than my last two sessions at Nelson Ledges on a totally stock suspension. Could do some lift-throttle oversteering to get the car to rotate. Before, it was just push, push, push once you hit the limit. Now it's got a nice, neutral balance up to the limit.
Is a big RSB going to instantly kill you if you make a mistake? Maybe if you're a complete novice or a complete idiot. If you have had some high-performance driving instruction and your comfortable with the car at its limit stock (you know how to recover), a big RSB is the best next mod. And Dan GSR said so.

Always driver mod first, then suspension.
 

autobahngti

Synthesizer
Location
Minneapolis, MN, USA
Car(s)
07 GTI
I guess we all have our opinions. I personally don't want to be in turn 1 at BIR @ 130+MPH with a car that may snap oversteer. I have confidence in my abilities, but not that much, yet.

I think the 24mm bar will be perfect. I've already done some, erm... testing.. and it seems to handle exactly the way I'm looking for. The car is pretty close to neutral. I can induce a little oversteer with lift off, I'm not sure I'd LIKE much more than what I can do now.

I could see though how a really, really fat bar would be awesome for autocross or smaller, tighter tracks where a little extra rear end happiness could be something one could use to your advantage.

I guess a lot of it comes up to what feeling you'd like.

Nashbar you'll have to make it up to BIR SOME TIME. No use in putting all those goodies in if you're not gonna use them ;)
 

GodSquadMandrake

Radioactive Rotary Rocket
Location
Minneapolis
^
autobahn the reason I'm not too concerned with it is because the bar is adjustable and so are the shocks. So if I find that there is too much oversteer it's always possible to soften the rear end and tune it "just right" to my tastes. I figure if you're going to spend $200 on a RSB either way you might as well have the full range of stiffness on it. I would be more worried about it not being stiff enough than being too stiff. Usually that's been my experience with a RSB. You buy one that's not the big dog and it makes a difference but then it leaves you wanting more. Overkill theory I guess.
 

GTICrazy90

Ready to race!
Location
chino hills, CA
That's what everyone says and I understand it is wise logic for a truly novice driver who has never had any kind of experience. But this isn't my first car or my first rodeo. I knew stock wouldn't be enough for me before I even drove it off the dealership parking lot so I already had a stack of bolt-ons waiting at the house. Plus it's a FWD car. They are so EASY to drive fast and on the limit. The worst thing that happens if you give it too much throttle is understeer and then you just back off and tighten the line up again. My RX7 is 100x harder to drive because it has snap oversteer. If you give it too much gas it sticks up to the very limit and then the rear end just snaps out with only a milliseconds warning. To add to the problem you have the extremely peaky power band of the rotary engine. You can mash the pedal all day long under 4,000 RPM but after that you gotta be careful because you don't know when the dynamic chamber on the intake manifold opens (vacuum actuated) and then suddenly more power puts you in a spin. Then entering a corner if you don't rev match exactly you get shift lock and the rear end is skidding. That car is a pain to drive fast, but I love it!

Ok even if it's not FWD what about the old VW's with solid rear beams that loved to lift one tire? If you got oversteer in a MK2 it was a slide and you couldn't just reel it in with a little gas normally. If the tail is out, it's out to stay. The IRS on the MKV is so easy to control, just a little gas and it tucks back in.

Or what about Subaru's? I love the AWD and I'm not saying it's hard to drive, but to push it to the limit is more difficult than any FWD car. Finding that balance between understeer and oversteer is much more difficult because you have the characteristic of FWD and RWD in one. Especially if you don't have the diffs, bushings, and chassis bracing set up right transferring the weight to get the car to do what you want takes more thought, effort and technique.

Bikes are on their own level, totally different than a car.

I'm just saying a MKV is an easy car to drive with low limits overall. The understeer is more controllable and it has less power than other competitors in it's class like the SRT-4 and the MS3. But that's why I love it, it's a perfectly fun daily driver and not annoying like a track car. Who here actually goes to track events? I know some of you do, but everyone talks about it like they go every weekend. There isn't a track within 2,000 miles of me! Even when I lived in MN the only track is BIR and they don't do wheel to wheel racing. You can do lap days but even then in the expert class you're not allowed to pass in corners, only on straights and you can't be aggressive. That's not competitive because you're only competing against yourself. And it costs a ton. The best driving I ever get is RallyX and AutoX, but that's still not racing. The only real racing that will ever be available to me in my regions is Rally America stage rallies but very few people do that because it costs at least $3,000 per event to compete. I'm building my Subaru for it just because I love rally and it's my dream, but realistically I'll never be racing wheel to wheel in the MKV.

Well, yes I was talking about novice drivers, reading that post i get that your not a novice driver. I am one, and I always assume people are novice drivers(which most people on the road are) unless they say they've been on a track/autox and in your case rallyx, or had went to some type of driving school. So i guess for you, you do not really need to change driving habits that much since it looks like you got some experience :thumbsup:...

By the way how is rallyx?? I really want to try that out sometime, it looks like a lot of fun. That is one main reason I want to buy an STI. Im still young so i hope i have a good future in motorsports, not as a professional, but more as an expensive hobby. Just hope I have the money to do that.
 

GodSquadMandrake

Radioactive Rotary Rocket
Location
Minneapolis
By the way how is rallyx?? I really want to try that out sometime, it looks like a lot of fun. That is one main reason I want to buy an STI. Im still young so i hope i have a good future in motorsports, not as a professional, but more as an expensive hobby. Just hope I have the money to do that.

RallyX is a little more relaxed than AutoX usually on the competition side and on the tech inspection side but it depends what region your in. I've been with the Land'o'Lakes region and the Arctic region and the LoL region is def more relaxed. They actually made me pull my helmet liner out to inspect the Snell sticker up here when they don't even check the helmet in LoL.
But the event is the same basic idea with the cones. It's all about car control and there are a lot of different ways to approach the course. A lot of fun especially if you have a fun car that's AWD or RWD but I did it in my MK2 and my MKV even. I like the snow/ice events best because you get some awesome e-brake slides going. I'd say go for it.

An old Audi 90 or Subaru Legacy is a good cheap RallyX car. You don't need the STI. MK2 Golf's take FTD all the time and beat the STI's.
 

GTICrazy90

Ready to race!
Location
chino hills, CA
RallyX is a little more relaxed than AutoX usually on the competition side and on the tech inspection side but it depends what region your in. I've been with the Land'o'Lakes region and the Arctic region and the LoL region is def more relaxed. They actually made me pull my helmet liner out to inspect the Snell sticker up here when they don't even check the helmet in LoL.
But the event is the same basic idea with the cones. It's all about car control and there are a lot of different ways to approach the course. A lot of fun especially if you have a fun car that's AWD or RWD but I did it in my MK2 and my MKV even. I like the snow/ice events best because you get some awesome e-brake slides going. I'd say go for it.

An old Audi 90 or Subaru Legacy is a good cheap RallyX car. You don't need the STI. MK2 Golf's take FTD all the time and beat the STI's.

I see, well it will still be a long time before I'm able to try it out. Seeing how my first car I buy might be a GTI, I dunno if thats the optimum car to do rallyx, I may just get a beater and fix it up and use that. But that is when I have money. In the future I plan on building my own track car so in that car I may just have a special setup for rallyx.
 

GTICrazy90

Ready to race!
Location
chino hills, CA
For autocrossing, is it wise to just upgrade a RSB or is it better to do both Rear and front at the same time? Reason I ask is because my friend auto'x and she is thinking about buying just a RSB. I think she should do both though because she will just make the car oversteer a lot rather than understeer. She has I believe a 05 civic coupe. I believe the one she is buying is a 19mm, while her stock is only 12mm, not 100% sure on those numbers though. Adding 7mm thickness to the rear is a lot, and not doing anything to the front seems like a bad recipe for auto'x.

I know this isnt a gti question, but it does have to do with the track so I thought I would put it here, hope you guys dont mind
 

GodSquadMandrake

Radioactive Rotary Rocket
Location
Minneapolis
For autocrossing, is it wise to just upgrade a RSB or is it better to do both Rear and front at the same time? Reason I ask is because my friend auto'x and she is thinking about buying just a RSB. I think she should do both though because she will just make the car oversteer a lot rather than understeer. She has I believe a 05 civic coupe. I believe the one she is buying is a 19mm, while her stock is only 12mm, not 100% sure on those numbers though. Adding 7mm thickness to the rear is a lot, and not doing anything to the front seems like a bad recipe for auto'x.

I know this isnt a gti question, but it does have to do with the track so I thought I would put it here, hope you guys dont mind

Do the rear swaybar only. If anything you want to remove the fsb on a front wheel drive car. You have to remember that a swaybar doesn't increase your overall grip, all it does is transfer it around. Putting a bigger front swaybar on will decrease bodyroll at the expense of lifting the outside front tire in a corner. This is going to give you less grip in the front end, more in the rear, and less body roll. Essentially it'll feel tighter and maybe respond faster in a slalom but overall it'll be slower on an autox course for sure.
The reason you want to do a rear swaybar on a FWD car is because there is so little weight on the rear and the rear tires barely do anything to begin with. So it isn't a problem to sacrifice a little grip in the rear end because you are increasing the grip in the front end.
Pretty much everything you do to the suspension of a front wheel drive car is going to be working towards the goal of eliminating understeer. It's just basic tuning philosophy.
 
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