GTT
Touring Car Champion
- Location
- US, Chicago
This was part of another thread that had a review of a GLI after 5000 miles.
The reviewers had done a before and after dyno with some very very interesting results.
They used the APR chip. After looking at the data, it brought to light some things I had been considering while looking into these chips and the amazing claimed power increases.
So, I decided to post some of my comments from that thread into a new thread so we can discuss specifically the issue of the chip makers power claims. The particular one in question is from APR.
It will be helpful to read the review first and look at the dyno readout.
This is the link to that thread.
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_1708.shtml
In the review the stock GTI put out about 200hp at the wheels, which implies the stock crank output greater than VW claims, sweet if all GTI's put out this much.
The torque at the wheels, barring the big spike, is about 225lb ft., which again is greater than the claim crank output of 207lb ft.
If the GTI engine is actually putting out more than advetised, then a good chunk of that power increase, "claimed" by APR, is actually from the stock engine as it seems the stock hp and torque are much greater at the crank than what VW says. We're being asked to pay for something we're not getting or at least not getting from the APR chip in total.
The APR chip does give very nice improvements in hp and torque, but to the extent claimed by APR.
The reason I'm discussing this is because modding a turbo engine results in pretty good gains over modding a NA engine. But, to get nearly 100lb ft. of torque increase is extraordingary and not so simply done by a reprogram. My last turbo car was a Mit. Eclipse/Laser with stock crank power of 190/195hp. I did the boost tricks and installed a larger turbo that flowed double the air of the stock unit along with some simply intake mods and I still didn't get anywhere near 100lb ft. of more torque. My guess is that I went from 190/195hp to about 215/220hp
with about 30lb ft. of extra torque. Even with the larger turbo and better flowing intake and greater boost I didn't get what I would call BIG gains as advertised by APR. Plus, I would get fuel cut in very cold weather when giving it big throttle. Turbo's LOVE cold air and with the mods I had the air flow would overwhelm the fuel injectors.
I just can't see the stock GTI's injectors being capable of sustaining that much HP and torque increase. Those would have to be some very over built injectors to be able to deliver the fuel needed for that big of a gain
Without more real dyno data the APR claims are still suspect. The article dyno tests make clear that the APR gain claims are suspect. We don't have dyno tests to the contrary yet.
With the APR mods we should be seeing wheel HP go from 170hp to about 215hp or a gain of
45hp.
That's not what we see in that dyno test. The stock power was 200hp and went to 215hp, which is 15hp increase.
The stock wheel torque with a typical 15% driveline loss, should read 176lb ft. and go to 258lb ft. with the chip. Instead, that dyno shows stock torque at 240lb ft. (spike), 225lb ft. typical.
The APR chip increase should be 258lb. ft. or a net gain of 82lb ft. The dyno chip torque reads 265lb ft. (spike) and 250-255lb ft. typical. Not the claimed torque increase as advertised.
The claimed increase from stock is just not there. What is there, in this test, is that the stock engine starts at a higher level of output to begin with and the APR gains, though very nice, are NOT what they are claimed to be.
Remember, accounting for a 15% loss the HP increase should be a net gian of 45hp (215-170).
And, torque should be a net gain of 82lb ft. (258-176). That's a wheel HP/torque net gain, the crank gains would be higher.
I know I'm harping on this, but it seems significant and important to me to get a true answer to real gains, and not just be happy that I'm getting "good enough" increases, even though they are very good gains.
Would it be ok if VW said the GTI puts out 200hp at the crank and later you find it has only
180hp? Mazda claimed the RX8 put out 250hp or so crank HP and later had to revise it to around 238hp as the engines didn't put out the claim and customers were offered full refunds or some money back.
I think that one should get what they are paying for.
If APR knows that the stock power output of the GTI is greater than what VW advertises, then they should make the claim of how much MORE power their product actually generates.
Also, remember, on the APR website they actually show a dyno, which is conveniently not described as wheel or crank power. Most dyno's for tuners are wheel power claims not crank, which would make their claim even more suspect. :eyebulge:
T
The reviewers had done a before and after dyno with some very very interesting results.
They used the APR chip. After looking at the data, it brought to light some things I had been considering while looking into these chips and the amazing claimed power increases.
So, I decided to post some of my comments from that thread into a new thread so we can discuss specifically the issue of the chip makers power claims. The particular one in question is from APR.
It will be helpful to read the review first and look at the dyno readout.
This is the link to that thread.
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_1708.shtml
In the review the stock GTI put out about 200hp at the wheels, which implies the stock crank output greater than VW claims, sweet if all GTI's put out this much.
The torque at the wheels, barring the big spike, is about 225lb ft., which again is greater than the claim crank output of 207lb ft.
If the GTI engine is actually putting out more than advetised, then a good chunk of that power increase, "claimed" by APR, is actually from the stock engine as it seems the stock hp and torque are much greater at the crank than what VW says. We're being asked to pay for something we're not getting or at least not getting from the APR chip in total.
The APR chip does give very nice improvements in hp and torque, but to the extent claimed by APR.
The reason I'm discussing this is because modding a turbo engine results in pretty good gains over modding a NA engine. But, to get nearly 100lb ft. of torque increase is extraordingary and not so simply done by a reprogram. My last turbo car was a Mit. Eclipse/Laser with stock crank power of 190/195hp. I did the boost tricks and installed a larger turbo that flowed double the air of the stock unit along with some simply intake mods and I still didn't get anywhere near 100lb ft. of more torque. My guess is that I went from 190/195hp to about 215/220hp
with about 30lb ft. of extra torque. Even with the larger turbo and better flowing intake and greater boost I didn't get what I would call BIG gains as advertised by APR. Plus, I would get fuel cut in very cold weather when giving it big throttle. Turbo's LOVE cold air and with the mods I had the air flow would overwhelm the fuel injectors.
I just can't see the stock GTI's injectors being capable of sustaining that much HP and torque increase. Those would have to be some very over built injectors to be able to deliver the fuel needed for that big of a gain
Without more real dyno data the APR claims are still suspect. The article dyno tests make clear that the APR gain claims are suspect. We don't have dyno tests to the contrary yet.
With the APR mods we should be seeing wheel HP go from 170hp to about 215hp or a gain of
45hp.
That's not what we see in that dyno test. The stock power was 200hp and went to 215hp, which is 15hp increase.
The stock wheel torque with a typical 15% driveline loss, should read 176lb ft. and go to 258lb ft. with the chip. Instead, that dyno shows stock torque at 240lb ft. (spike), 225lb ft. typical.
The APR chip increase should be 258lb. ft. or a net gain of 82lb ft. The dyno chip torque reads 265lb ft. (spike) and 250-255lb ft. typical. Not the claimed torque increase as advertised.
The claimed increase from stock is just not there. What is there, in this test, is that the stock engine starts at a higher level of output to begin with and the APR gains, though very nice, are NOT what they are claimed to be.
Remember, accounting for a 15% loss the HP increase should be a net gian of 45hp (215-170).
And, torque should be a net gain of 82lb ft. (258-176). That's a wheel HP/torque net gain, the crank gains would be higher.
I know I'm harping on this, but it seems significant and important to me to get a true answer to real gains, and not just be happy that I'm getting "good enough" increases, even though they are very good gains.
Would it be ok if VW said the GTI puts out 200hp at the crank and later you find it has only
180hp? Mazda claimed the RX8 put out 250hp or so crank HP and later had to revise it to around 238hp as the engines didn't put out the claim and customers were offered full refunds or some money back.
I think that one should get what they are paying for.
If APR knows that the stock power output of the GTI is greater than what VW advertises, then they should make the claim of how much MORE power their product actually generates.
Also, remember, on the APR website they actually show a dyno, which is conveniently not described as wheel or crank power. Most dyno's for tuners are wheel power claims not crank, which would make their claim even more suspect. :eyebulge:
T