WM help...what went wrong

[Jremey]

So a few weeks back I decided to do a water/meth kit after reading all the benefits. I feel like I did my best in research pre-install but something obviously didn't go quite right. I'm running Snow Performance 2.5 which comes with a gauge controller tapped into boost. The system runs off a size 3 nozzle, rear mounted pump and tank, check valve and pressure solenoid for the rear mount, and IE's throttle body plate for WM injection. Before bolting on the plate I made sure to purge the system to make sure there was flow and everything was all good. Did a few runs and everything seemed fine until I came to idle and noticed a slight misfire. Played with the throttle a bit and it seemed to be noticeable under slight accel then disappeared probably around 2k rpm. The warmer the engine, the more it missed. Figured it was a bad check valve siphoning into the intake so I got a new one, ran the same way. Unfortunately I was not able to stop during my test drive as I was on a food run so the miss kept getting worse and worse until the epc light came on. Finally got it home which was yesterday, pulled the codes today and saw the misfires. Pulled the plugs, only cylinder 1 was fouled, the others looked lean so I replaced all 4, replaced cyl 1 coil and it's running back to normal. I also disconnected the WM feed line before doing ignition repairs. It's also worth noting that i made my own WM per instructions on Snow Performance's website which is blue washer fluid rated for -20° spiked with 3 bottles of yellow Iso-Heet. Anybody else have issues with Snow Performance?

 

[GIACUser]

Sounds like you understand how the plumbing should work. How did you dial it in? Can you tell me about all the performance (power) mods you have and what tune you are running?

 

[Jremey]

Sounds like you understand how the plumbing should work. How did you dial it in? Can you tell me about all the performance (power) mods you have and what tune you are running?

The stage 2.5 kit comes with an injection controller/boost guage. It taps into boost and I set the injection start at a certain boost level. I tried it at 6, 8, and 10 psi and they all performed the same on accel and idle. I'm currently running unitronics k04 with stage 2+ tune, IE catch can with PCV block off, Forge Twintake, Forge Twintercooler, Forge BOV, R8 coils, and IK20TT plugs. One thing I was unsure of was the placement of the check valve. It's about a foot away from the injector nozzle but wasn't sure if it needed to be directly attached to the nozzle or if it didn't matter. Could it be that I made my own WM mix? Do I need to be specifically tuned for WM?

 

[Jremey]

Forgot to mention, full injection is set at 27 psi. Also, is it possible to have too cold it's? I'm in the pacific northwest and it's been under 60 lately.

 

[GIACUser]

Couple more questions before comments.
1. What octane level is the Uni Stage 2+ tune expecting and what octane fuel is going in the tank.
2. Before putting on W/M system, how was the car running and had you done any logging prior to install?

 

[Jremey]

Couple more questions before comments.
1. What octane level is the Uni Stage 2+ tune expecting and what octane fuel is going in the tank.
2. Before putting on W/M system, how was the car running and had you done any logging prior to install?

Tune is for 93 but all I can find in my area is 92 which I always use. No logs been thinking about getting vcds or obd11 but the car has been running beautifully.

 

[GIACUser]

Some general comments
1. Solenoid between reservoir and pump. (just checking)
2. Checkvalve should be as close as possible to jet. I generally use the jets with built-in checkvalves.
3. Nozzles placed just after intercooler, allow for most evap of mix (cooling)
4. Nozzles placed after throttle body allow much less evap and allow droplets of the mix to be used to both cool and fuel. (your nozzle)

It would be essential for you to have VCDS to dial in a water meth system. Your car is modified and tuned to run well without W/M and it does. There might be some slight room for improvement since you are running 92oct fuel on a tune that was created with 93oct fuel, however it likely will not be much. To find out how much you would might gain you have to log some 3rd or 4th gear pull to see if timing is being retarded. If so, we can add just enough w/m to zero that out and max the power from your tune.

So, how/when can you take advantage of w/m? Well in the summer time when you have hot ambient temps, the car will lose power because cylinder temps will get high enough to cause pre-ignition (knock) and hot air is less dense (expands as it heats), less dense air means the computer will not be able to add as much fuel and what you feel is a general loss of power. Add w/m and the cooling condenses the air and brings down they cylinder temps and raises the octane of your overall fueling. Methanol is about 116 octane so it really help to suppress knock.

One thing I would add to your current setup (which I did) was a simple on/off switch so you can disable the system when you don't need it (like in the cold months).

So if you want to use w/m to make more power, you certainly can but it would require a more aggressive tune, which is what I did. I ran a stage 2 Snow system on my K04 setup and I ran a tune that required 100oct fuel. I ran 91oct in the tank and a dual nozzle setup with two 225ml nozzles (1 off the intercooler, 1 in throttle body). I drove the car daily for years with a 100oct tune. So I ran 91 in tank and used W/M to make up need for 100oct. Zero knock.

Another note - get regular Methanol - most motorcycle shops or karting shops will order it for you. Mix it 50/50 by volume only with "distilled" water.

In conclusion, get a Ross-Tech VCDS cable so you can do some logging which is the tool you need to dial in a w/m system. With w/m you need to get the amount of spray right - too little and you will be leaving power on the table - too much and you will foul cylinder, get incomplete burn of fuel and lose power.

Once you get a cable or tune or whatever you path you decide, happy to help with dial in process.

 

[Jremey]

Some general comments
1. Solenoid between reservoir and pump. (just checking)
2. Checkvalve should be as close as possible to jet. I generally use the jets with built-in checkvalves.
3. Nozzles placed just after intercooler, allow for most evap of mix (cooling)
4. Nozzles placed after throttle body allow much less evap and allow droplets of the mix to be used to both cool and fuel. (your nozzle)

It would be essential for you to have VCDS to dial in a water meth system. Your car is modified and tuned to run well without W/M and it does. There might be some slight room for improvement since you are running 92oct fuel on a tune that was created with 93oct fuel, however it likely will not be much. To find out how much you would might gain you have to log some 3rd or 4th gear pull to see if timing is being retarded. If so, we can add just enough w/m to zero that out and max the power from your tune.

So, how/when can you take advantage of w/m? Well in the summer time when you have hot ambient temps, the car will lose power because cylinder temps will get high enough to cause pre-ignition (knock) and hot air is less dense (expands as it heats), less dense air means the computer will not be able to add as much fuel and what you feel is a general loss of power. Add w/m and the cooling condenses the air and brings down they cylinder temps and raises the octane of your overall fueling. Methanol is about 116 octane so it really help to suppress knock.

One thing I would add to your current setup (which I did) was a simple on/off switch so you can disable the system when you don't need it (like in the cold months).

So if you want to use w/m to make more power, you certainly can but it would require a more aggressive tune, which is what I did. I ran a stage 2 Snow system on my K04 setup and I ran a tune that required 100oct fuel. I ran 91oct in the tank and a dual nozzle setup with two 225ml nozzles (1 off the intercooler, 1 in throttle body). I drove the car daily for years with a 100oct tune. So I ran 91 in tank and used W/M to make up need for 100oct. Zero knock.

Another note - get regular Methanol - most motorcycle shops or karting shops will order it for you. Mix it 50/50 by volume only with "distilled" water.

In conclusion, get a Ross-Tech VCDS cable so you can do some logging which is the tool you need to dial in a w/m system. With w/m you need to get the amount of spray right - too little and you will be leaving power on the table - too much and you will foul cylinder, get incomplete burn of fuel and lose power.

Once you get a cable or tune or whatever you path you decide, happy to help with dial in process.

So the solenoid is not between the res and pump. My setup goes tank above pump, then pump, the solenoid, then check valve about a foot away from the nozzle but I can probably move it closer. From the guage controller I can deactivate the pump and turn the whole system off so I'll do that during the winter if it's gonna make the engine too cold. As for the nozzle placement, I was under the impression that the throttle body plate was for a single nozzle setup. Didn't think my current setup would support a dual nozzle setup. Do I need to run 2 nozzles or can I do just the one? If so would it have to be in a different location?

 

[GIACUser]

So the solenoid is not between the res and pump. My setup goes tank above pump, then pump, the solenoid, then check valve about a foot away from the nozzle but I can probably move it closer. From the guage controller I can deactivate the pump and turn the whole system off so I'll do that during the winter if it's gonna make the engine too cold. As for the nozzle placement, I was under the impression that the throttle body plate was for a single nozzle setup. Didn't think my current setup would support a dual nozzle setup. Do I need to run 2 nozzles or can I do just the one? If so would it have to be in a different location?

Solenoid at that location should be fine, you just want to avoid any gravity feeds when the system is off. The tubing between the nozzle and checkvalve will hold w/m and because your nozzle is on the other side of the throttle body that fluid will get sucked in even when not boosting, so minimizing that amount of tubing is ideal.

Depending on what your goals are determines placement, number of nozzles and size of nozzles. A throttle body placement for a nozzle for instance is preferable when you are trying to make up a fuel deficit. If you are trying to provide cooling because you are losing timing in the heat, putting the nozzle further back is more effective.

Running dual nozzles off your current system just requires a T fitting to give you 1 w/m IN and 2 w/m OUT tubes. There are adapters to mount nozzles in your silicone tubing. (that is what I did coming right after bend coming out of intercooler).

Only logging will really tell us where w/m can help your setup but in your case you have your car setup optimally (hardware) and you live in the perfect climate and you are only 1oct point short of the optimum setup. There is likely only a small bit of room for w/m to improve your particular setup as it is right now unless the climate gets hotter. The real way to take advantage of w/m for you would be to go to a more aggressive tune.

Just an FYI, things aren't getting too cold, I suspect you are spraying more w/m than your tune needs which will foul things up like too much fuel would (rich).

The place to start for you is logging to see what is going on and that will reveal where in the rpm range w/m can help. It is easy to do once you have the cable. I even put up a video on how-to on Youtube back when I did my K04 setup.

 

[Jremey]

Solenoid at that location should be fine, you just want to avoid any gravity feeds when the system is off. The tubing between the nozzle and checkvalve will hold w/m and because your nozzle is on the other side of the throttle body that fluid will get sucked in even when not boosting, so minimizing that amount of tubing is ideal.

Depending on what your goals are determines placement, number of nozzles and size of nozzles. A throttle body placement for a nozzle for instance is preferable when you are trying to make up a fuel deficit. If you are trying to provide cooling because you are losing timing in the heat, putting the nozzle further back is more effective.

Running dual nozzles off your current system just requires a T fitting to give you 1 w/m IN and 2 w/m OUT tubes. There are adapters to mount nozzles in your silicone tubing. (that is what I did coming right after bend coming out of intercooler).

Only logging will really tell us where w/m can help your setup but in your case you have your car setup optimally (hardware) and you live in the perfect climate and you are only 1oct point short of the optimum setup. There is likely only a small bit of room for w/m to improve your particular setup as it is right now unless the climate gets hotter. The real way to take advantage of w/m for you would be to go to a more aggressive tune.

Just an FYI, things aren't getting too cold, I suspect you are spraying more w/m than your tune needs which will foul things up like too much fuel would (rich).

The place to start for you is logging to see what is going on and that will reveal where in the rpm range w/m can help. It is easy to do once you have the cable. I even put up a video on how-to on Youtube back when I did my K04 setup.

Ok, gonna move the check valve later. Gonna do some more research today on which cable to get since I only have a Mac. Since WM doesn't really do anything in the cold I probably won't post any logs until it starts getting hotter hear. Really appreciate all the advice

 

[GIACUser]

I have a MAC as well. You can run Windows on your MAC like I do. I HIGHLY recommend you consider the Ross-Tech.com cable, it is very close to what the factory software used at the dealers. It is however Windows only.

I use Parallels to run Windows on my Macbook Pro. Or you can use Bootcamp. I have run the Ross-Tech VCDS stuff this way for years. More recently I purchased a refubished Lenovo laptop with 8gig ram, Win 10 and a 128gig SSD drive and a 13in screen for 199. That way my expensive Macbook Pro doesn't get used in the garage. It was a good investment.

Last word, W/M would do a lot in cold weather if you had a tune that could take advantage of it. Your current tune was created with an expectation of certain hardware being present, certain fuel being used and certain ambient temps to get full power. You have almost all of that currently so you are likely achieving the limits of power that the tune was designed for. Stick on a new tune with more boost and timing and then w/m can really help you.