VCDS MB 091 and 093

[ROH ECHT]

*If you have pics of your own MB 091 & 093, feel free to post the pic or add the data and share what was found to be the fix.*

Just seeking some confirmation on what the MB 091 and 093 mean.
I thought 091 shows if the timing belt and chain are all mounted correctly. And that the VVT is working to keep both cams where they should be. VCDS MB 093 reflects where the intake cam is in relation to the crankshaft. But also: MB 093 Block 3 is a snapshot of the actual intake cam position in relation to where the ECU expects it to be...which would be at 0°KW. If you can make any corrections to my recollection of this all...please do so.

I made an attempt to help someone but I am not sure what their data points to in regards to their problem. But I am a bit stumped. I did consider the cam position sensor may be reporting incorrectly. But I know not if more can be checked using VCDS. Keep in mind they just replaced the chain and tensioner and say both the belt and chain are mounted correctly. They did opt for an aftermarket chain and tensioner from ECS, rather than genuine VW/OE.

Their 091 data shows specified at 28°KW and actual at 28.5°KW.
But the Phase Position is at -10°KW when it should be near 0°KW. See pic below;

If you have solid suggestions I could pass along...feel free to do so.

 

[ROH ECHT]

Anyone...??? Still seeking what MB 093 Block 3 - "Phase Position Bank 1 Intake" reflects???
I find it hard to believe that we all have an understanding that it reflects chain stretch...yet we know not if this only shows intake cam position in relation to the crank position or not???

To my understanding;
MB 093 Block 3 is a snapshot of the actual intake cam position in relation to where the ECU expects it to be...which would be at 0°KW.
MB 091 Block 2 shows duty-cycle of the N205.
MB 091 Block 4 shows how well the N205 and phaser are doing their job in correctly timing the intake cam relative to the specified.

If there is a really good link to one accurately explaining all this....I would love to watch it or read it.

 

[clockwise33]

Check out a Youtube video by user "Decimal Tenths" called "How to : TFSI TIMING BELT and CHAIN". He does a good job explaining MB 91 and 93 on a ea113.

According to the video, -10 deg is excessive. Is the car running OK? I've done cams on a couple of these engines and it is very easy to install the intake cam one tooth off, even using the correct cam locking tool.

 

[ROH ECHT]

Check out a Youtube video by user "Decimal Tenths" called "How to : TFSI TIMING BELT and CHAIN". He does a good job explaining MB 91 and 93 on a ea113.

According to the video, -10 deg is excessive. Is the car running OK? I've done cams on a couple of these engines and it is very easy to install the intake cam one tooth off, even using the correct cam locking tool.

Yeah...I've seen it and I also have it 'bookmarked.'
When in the vid does he say -10° KW is excessive? I heard "we've had some come in with some chain rattle at -6° KW." But heard nothing on -10° KW being excessive.

Yes, mine is running fine at 158k miles.
Mine recently shows:
MB 091 Block 2 is typically between 6% and 7%.
MB 091 Block 4 is always between 27° KW and 28° KW.
MB 093 Block 3 is typically between 2°KW and 3°KW.

I'm just, again, seeking confirmation on what I've always read and come to understand on it all. Because it's what I always say to others. So when I recently looked for myself to confirm this...I was coming up empty other than hearsay.
My understanding is this; MB 093 Block 3 is but a snapshot of where the intake cam is as reported to the ECU in relation to 0° KW. Where 0° KW is expected to be seen by the ECU, following the cam adjustment shown in MB 091.

 

[clockwise33]

When in the vid does he say -10° KW is excessive? I heard "we've had some com in with some chain rattle at -6° KW." But heard nothing on -10° KW being excessive.

Yes, mine is running fine at 158k miles.
Mine recently shows:
MB 091 Block 2 is typically between 6% and 7%.
MB 091 Block 4 is always between 27° KW and 28° KW.
MB 093 Block 3 is typically between 2°KW and 3°KW.

I'm just, again, seeking confirmation on what I've always read and come to understand on it all. Because it's what I always say to others. So when I recently looked for myself to confirm this...I was coming up empty other than hearsay.
My understanding is this; MB 093 Block 3 is but a snapshot of where the intake cam is as reported to the ECU in relation to 0° KW. Where 0° KW is expected to be seen by the ECU, following the cam adjustment shown in MB 091.

Just the way I interpreted the video, it seemed to me like he was saying that anything beyond -6 degrees was no good. But you're right, he doesn't explicitly state that -10 degrees is excessive.

 

[clockwise33]

I have two 2.0t ea113's, my weekend MKV and a daily A3. I've replaced the chain and tensioner on both relatively recently. I'll update with my group 93 values within the next couple of days.

 

[clockwise33]

Here are the values from my 06 GTI. I replaced the chain and tensioner 23,000 miles ago.

 

[ROH ECHT]

That looks very good.
When I see posts of MB 032 - Block 2 data and this value is between 6% and 7%, the N205 is working easily to match actual to its target. When I do see 6% to 7%, is when someone is showing their data after swapping in new bits and all is apparently good.

In MB 033 - Block 3...was your data there done when cold or at full operating temperature? Engine load at 19.5% seems it may be in warm up mode.
I do see most will decrease one degree when fully warmed. It's not bad...at 2° ahead of zero?
Let me share my understanding; a positive number here (MB 093 Block 3) means the intake cam position is being reported being 2° ahead...and so the chain is tight by 2° and may get closer to zero when warmed...to then might end up at 1°.
When it shows a negative angle here in "phase position" it means the intake cam's position is x degrees behind where it is expected to be.

Is this, my understanding, correct?
All values are related to crank position of course....and in where the cam position sensor is, the directional rotation of the cam...being clockwise, and while looking at it from the front of the engine:

 

[clockwise33]

Here are the values from my 08 A3, 3,000 miles since chain and tensioner replacement:

 

[clockwise33]

That looks very good.
When I see posts of MB 032 - Block 2 data and this value is between 6% and 7%, the N205 is working easily to match actual to its target. When I do see 6% to 7%, is when someone is showing their data after swapping in new bits and all is apparently good.

In MB 033 - Block 3...was your data there done when cold or at full operating temperature? Engine load at 19.5% seems it may be in warm up mode.
I do see most will decrease one degree when fully warmed. It's not bad...at 2° ahead of zero?
Let me share my understanding; a positive number here (MB 033 Block 3) means the intake cam position is being reported being 2° ahead...and so the chain is tight by 2° and may get closer to zero when warmed...to then maybe be 1°.
When it shows a negative angle here in "phase position" it means the intake cam's position is x degrees behind where it is expected to be.

Is this, my understanding, correct?
All values are related to crank position of course....and in where the cam position sensor is, the directional rotation of the cam...being clockwise, and while looking at it from the front of the engine:
View attachment 252143

Both measurements were done with engine almost at temp after about 10 minutes of driving.

 

[Finder]

Was your friend able to find out what the problem was?
Currently experiencing a similar situation: phase position at -9 KW with new belt kit (timing looks good) and new chain/tensioner on the other side.

 

[ROH ECHT]

Was your friend able to find out what the problem was?
Currently experiencing a similar situation: phase position at -9 KW with new belt kit (timing looks good) and new chain/tensioner on the other side.

No...it was someone in this group, https://www.facebook.com/groups/529405700525327
And they rarely get back to update what they found. Their post there is near impossible to find from 9 months ago.

So anyway...-9°KW phase position, when its cam adjustment looks good, would be more likely be due to oil flow throughout the VVT system.
To include:
1) N205 pickup screen in the lower lip of the chain cover may be clogged.
2) One or more of the three rings was damaged when the chain cover was mounted...if they were forced into the cam phaser's center bore (which hopefully isn't grooved by the rings).
3) Oil pressure in general is low...pickup tube's screen in the sump may be blocked.
4) Debris is built up or lodged inside the N205 passage to the cam phaser unit, including inside the phaser.

What to do? I wouldn't enjoy it, but I would remove the cover and: remove the pickup screen from the cover for cleaning__inspect the three rings and the center bore of the phaser__clean the n205 inlet and exit__check the tensioner isn't stuck...still has some spring to it__lastly, take apart the phaser for cleaning.

Use a new chain cover gasket when putting it all together...never use sealant here.
I wish I could help more....perhaps you can pose this on the 2.0 tfsi page. Maybe the one who had the issue, or others, will see it and have better direction than I right now. I remember some responses from others were it's normal. But the OP replied; "then why was it not this way before?" I wouldn't think it is normal...but if those same people again reply to you, ask them how it becomes the new norm.

 

[Finder]

I found my cam adjuster very stiff (non OEM) so I ordered and just finished installing a brand new OEM VVT kit (new housing with new rings, new N205 and new cam adjuster). Not a cheap kit..
Timing marks match on the belt side. And I have installed the chain as per the video mentioned in this thread.
I get no more codes, I used to get P0016 and P000A with the old VVT parts.
But now the car doesn't pull. At idle I now see 28 KW Cam Adjustment Intake B1 (spec) and 61.5 KW Cam Adjustment Intake B1 (actual). So more than double?!?
With the old parts, these used to match (28 and 27.5)

I also don't get a value for phase position in group 093 anymore. It's just blank.


I'm about to set this car on fire...

 

[ROH ECHT]

I thought all was good except for the -9°KW.
The 61.5°KW means the cam chain is installed incorrectly...that is if the belt marks all line up.
Did you confirm the belt is correct after rotating the crank as shown in the vid at 8m50s?
This is the video, yes?

I made this pic...counting the gaps/openings in the chain. The chain is upside down in the pic, so the counted gaps will actually be on top when mounted.

 

[Finder]

Yes, this is how I counted except I went backwards like the guy did in the video, with the marker.
I am going to install new cams. The story with this cylinder head is that I bent the valves on it and I replaced everything except the cams as there was no visible damage on them except a scratch.
I think they twisted or the gear on the intake cam moved. It's the only explanation left that fits these symptoms.