Ultimate Brake Upgrade using Stock Calipers

[miamirice]

If Junker doesn't track at all heat won't be any issue for the calipers
and no need swapping fluid more often than every one or two years.

Endless do make some really serious track pads as well. Most famous
teams run the MA45B compound at the 24 hours at the Ring. With this
pad they don't need to change pads and rotors for the complete race.

Almost all leading cars run MA45B. Also Volkswagen does:

No argument on what you said, however I thought this was a TRACK specefic forum. Otherwise it should go in a BRAKE forum. If there is something that I consistently see from my students - its the belief they need to go out and spend money on there car.

That being said: IF you are in this forum because you lap/auto-x/race, I don't know anybody who does HPDE or races who would wait a year or 2 to change dot 4 fluid. Utter insanity IMO. Endless and the compound you mention is probably great on your side of the pond. Here in the US those pads will never be used unless Endless is providing sponsorship. At $4000-$6000 per race weekend for endurance racing, and $1000 per day to run sprints at the grassroots level, It's not in anybody's budget to spend $350 for front pads.

For anybody reading this, if you are interested in tracking/auto-x/racing - read this:

Brakes: http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/build-repairs-maintenance/racecar-brakepads-and-brake-fluid.php


Racing/tracking : www.goaheadtakethewheel.com

 

[miamirice]

How does that hub work? It kind of looks like the wheel sits against the rotor, the pins keep it from spinning, and the hub thing just puts pressure against the center of the wheel somehow? So there's no actual bolts involved?

More or less correct. This is now standard on the porsche GT3 and GT3RS

 

[the bruce]

No argument on what you said, however I thought this was a TRACK specefic forum. Otherwise it should go in a BRAKE forum.

This is the track and autocross section and autocrossers don't need
that much to spend on brakes by far.
Even more this forum is the most technical on GolfMkV.com and I
welcome everyone who is interested in discussing technical stuff.

IF you are in this forum because you lap/auto-x/race, I don't know anybody who does HPDE or races who would wait a year or 2 to change dot 4 fluid. Utter insanity IMO.

I agree with you. If the brakes frequently get really hot change
ANY fluid at least every 6 months don't matter how expensive
it is. Again autocross is different from tracking.

Endless and the compound you mention is probably great on your side of the pond. Here in the US those pads will never be used unless Endless is providing sponsorship. At $4000-$6000 per race weekend for endurance racing, and $1000 per day to run sprints at the grassroots level, It's not in anybody's budget to spend $350 for front pads.

I just wanted to show Endless' reputation. The MA45B compound is
one of the most expensive. There are lots of cheaper compounds
in their product range.

But even the MA45B will save money. Keep in mind it lasts three
times longer and also the rotors last at least two times longer.
Confirmed by teams running them and I have talked to. I know two
of them. If you run AP or Performance Friction rotors costing 1000,--
per axle you will save money in the long run.

The MX72 is not a true racing compound (although trackable). It's
also known for it's rotor friendlyness and it's low wear. IMHO a good
choice for DD and autocross or occasional tracking.

How does that hub work? It kind of looks like the wheel sits against the rotor, the pins keep it from spinning, and the hub thing just puts pressure against the center of the wheel somehow? So there's no actual bolts involved?

A usual way in motorsports, 'central locking'. No bolts, just centering and 5 studs
+ one big central nut. Same principle as formula 1.

 

[bostonaudi]

No argument on what you said, however I thought this was a TRACK specefic forum. Otherwise it should go in a BRAKE forum. If there is something that I consistently see from my students - its the belief they need to go out and spend money on there car.

LOL Instructors are many times worse than students on spending! :eyebulge: And the story HPDE isn't racing? LOL. Only among strangers it isn't racing! With my instructor buds its basically turned into a quite friendly arms race, and we have a lot of fun.

I only have an issue when money is spent badly or before driving skills warrant. The thing that scares me most are all these LS1 transplant Frankensteins, LS1's are showing up in everything now in cars never designed for such a big motor.

 

[junker]

GMG uses the Endless in ALMS here in the US.

You be the judge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGhZVGDGh6c

GMG uses these pads on every Cup car that they build.

It costs money to do things right and I clearly indicated where some money can be cut. A $500 brake upgrade is completely reasonable. Cheaper than an CBE or a s/w flash. No reason to cry because I could have saved $60 with ATE fluid - a fluid that (by itself) didn't resolve my issues with brake pedal feel- or $100 on a set of inferior pads. I'll flush if I notice any deterioration in the excellent brake pedal feel. Did all the work myself and saved a lot of $$$ here as well.

 

[junker]

Choose your weapon:

 

[the bruce]

You surely spent the money right. It doesn't really make you poor to run a $60 fluid.
The pads work fine and I hope they last as long as promised.


BTW
the Falken team runs Performance Friction brakes (they don't tell about pads) and
Sachs coilover/shocks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=o3AF3j0oVsM

 

[junker]

Just curious but at what point in pedal travel does everyone with stock calipers feel them begin to bite?

And with your car idling and brakes engaged, can you push your pedal further? To the floor? Is it the vacuum assist?

Great write-up! The only thing I don't like is the original braking performance you described with the HPS pads. Honestly, there must be something wrong with your brakes, as you suspected. The only reason I mention it is to encourage you to keep checking things out, so your brakes will be even better.

If memory serves, there's a check valve in our system that can crack, and which will negatively affect your brake booster performance. Also, I've heard of the odd leaking vacuum pump. Lastly, as you know you could have a bad master cylinder.

 

[the bruce]

- 1/3 ?
- yes

 

[junker]

But even the MA45B will save money. Keep in mind it lasts three
times longer and also the rotors last at least two times longer.
Confirmed by teams running them and I have talked to.

The MX72 is not a true racing compound (although trackable). It's
also known for it's rotor friendlyness and it's low wear. IMHO a good
choice for DD and autocross or occasional tracking.

Exactly. Alan and Fabryce said these are lasting at least 2x as long as anything else they have tried.

 

[Autobahn]

great post :thumbsup:

 

[miamirice]

GMG uses the Endless in ALMS here in the US.

You be the judge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGhZVGDGh6c

GMG uses these pads on every Cup car that they build.

It costs money to do things right and I clearly indicated where some money can be cut. A $500 brake upgrade is completely reasonable. Cheaper than an CBE or a s/w flash. No reason to cry because I could have saved $60 with ATE fluid - a fluid that (by itself) didn't resolve my issues with brake pedal feel- or $100 on a set of inferior pads. I'll flush if I notice any deterioration in the excellent brake pedal feel. Did all the work myself and saved a lot of $$$ here as well.

Great racing by GMG. I hope one day I can afford a dog box.

But this is my confusion here going back to your original post. Are you working on a track set up with OEM calipers or street set up? Having 1 set of pads is like choosing 1 pair of shoes to wear for daily comfort and for soccer.

And I always believe in paying for quality, but you know in the Honda challenge racing world it's amazing how many successful racers end up swapping in calipers from Acura legend, Acura integra type R etc....Onto a civic, From a donor vehicle and achieve the same outcome at half the cost. Sure they can pay for stop-tech, spoon,...etc but Personally I am trying to stretch my dollar.

 

[miamirice]

LOL Instructors are many times worse than students on spending! :eyebulge: And the story HPDE isn't racing? LOL. Only among strangers it isn't racing! With my instructor buds its basically turned into a quite friendly arms race, and we have a lot of fun.

I only have an issue when money is spent badly or before driving skills warrant. The thing that scares me most are all these LS1 transplant Frankensteins, LS1's are showing up in everything now in cars never designed for such a big motor.

I beg to differ. At least in S Florida it's like this:

Instructor group- spec Miatas, e30's for scca or NASA TT, c5 vettes.
Group C (novice) - Nissan GTR, e92 m3, zo6 vette, rousch mustang

Who can afford to frequently run cars like that at HPDE And as the guidelines go "don't track anything you can't afford to set on fire and walk away from". I had M3's when I would go out 4-6 times a year long ago. Now it's a 17 year old civic hatch that's still very expensive just setting it up for TT. I am sure auto-x unless done at the national competitive level might be very different, don't know, never done it. Might be I don't get this forum but I have an mkv and figured there were people here competing in them. Even posting there custom cage build.


I will agree HPDE advanced group is competitive. It's more like TT than racing though. I have never had anybody "shave off my mirror" or run out of brakes in the zone and punt me off, which is a routine incident in grass roots racing. You have to go into vintage racing if you want to avoid regular contact. Contact in the clubs I have instructed in will end your day and poss get you black listed depending on the incident.

 

[junker]

This is a single set-up that works well across agressive street and light track that I plan to use as I start to play around at some local events this summer. This pad is perfect for the street / auto-X crowd (who will never have the opportunity to get their brakes very warm), and even the occasional HPDE IMO. :wub: They don't make any noise, last a long time, are gentle on rotors, pull 1G+, don't dust very much and don't have to worry about swapping pads and/or rotors unless you will be overdriving the high threshold of these pads on racing compound tires, or need an endurance compounds with lower mu levels and extremely good modulation. :burnrubber:

I normally agree with you that hybrid components tend to be the jack-of-all-trades the master-of-none. But this IS the point of this thread. These pads have a uniquely large "area under the curve". Sure, there are dedicated compounds, but for anything up to light tracking on street tires and with stock calipers this is it IMO! :23:

If you're rocking dedicated track tires, or are running in an endurance event then there are some other options out there. But, with the quality, lifespan, and rotor friendliness of these pads I'd definitely be considering the MA45B compound in that case. :bow:

Great racing by GMG. I hope one day I can afford a dog box.

But this is my confusion here going back to your original post. Are you working on a track set up with OEM calipers or street set up? Having 1 set of pads is like choosing 1 pair of shoes to wear for daily comfort and for soccer.

And I always believe in paying for quality, but you know in the Honda challenge racing world it's amazing how many successful racers end up swapping in calipers from Acura legend, Acura integra type R etc....Onto a civic, From a donor vehicle and achieve the same outcome at half the cost. Sure they can pay for stop-tech, spoon,...etc but Personally I am trying to stretch my dollar.

 

[miamirice]

Just curious but at what point in pedal travel does everyone with stock calipers feel them begin to bite?

And with your car idling and brakes engaged, can you push your pedal further? To the floor? Is it the vacuum assist?

I don't know the answer, but when my pedal would gradually sink to the floor, it was a bad MC, I replaced and problem solved. If it is initially firm... Then sinks, I don't think it's the vacuum assist. I could be wrong of course. If you can get your pedal to the floor, you have issues. Have you bench bleed your MC? Maybe you got air in the MC while "turkey basting it". Bleeding your brakes won't solve this. You must bench bleed the MC. Please let us know what you find out v