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TT/S3 alloy arms & swivels Thread

Carfreak226

Detailer Extraordinaire
Location
92808, CA
Car(s)
2007 GTI MKV
Holy crap this is getting expensive and laborious.
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
I went ahead to get an alignment today after installing the S3 spindles and control arms.

Unfortunately, the camber was quite off. It was -3.0 deg on the front left, and -2.1 deg on the front right. My camber plates were set to -2.5 deg prior to this, and they are not the slot type. It is the H2sport camber plate setup, which has set holes for fixed camber settings (i.e.: -2.5 deg, -2.0 deg, -1.5 deg, etc.), so the camber could not have drifted. I also have 4 of the tyrolsport subframe collars installed. I do not have all the collars installed, but the subframe is "semi-located". I also tightened my control arm pivot bolts (the long ones near the centerline of the chassis) with the wheels loaded in the curb weight position using a jack, just as the repair manual suggested.

My mechanic thinks that the spindles could have been bent. My spindles were bought off a forum member here.

But, looking at them, they look extremely rigid with reinforced ribs everywhere. Is this possible? Or should I be looking to drop the subframe and reset it, despite having the tyrolsport collars?
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
I don't know much about the alignment but spindles can easily be bent by an accident. Aluminum, steel, reinforced, it doesn't matter.

Could it be a subframe shift issue? Because it looks like the left front has -0.5 degrees too much camber, and the right front has -0.5 degrees too little camber.

I would hate to get another alignment and find out the same issue is still there. The other thing I can do is put back my stock steel spindles.. but that is almost counter productive since I need to take the hub out again and replace a bunch of bolts.

Also, the alignment printout shows caster as:

Left front: 7.6 deg
Right front: 7.9 deg
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
Hmm, so I checked my previous alignments from before, and it looks like I've had caster imbalance greater than this before. However, the camber always aligned perfectly, -/+ 0.1 degrees up front.

Something is definitely not right with either the control arms or spindles.
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
Could someone with the Passat spindles installed please chime in?

I have tried to align my car twice this month, but the front left and right camber are not balanced. I did not touch the camber plates and the camber was preset at -2.5 degrees from before with my H2sport camber plates (non-slotted design. has fixed holes for camber settings in SET increments), and always aligned accurately to -2.5 (-/+ 0.1 degrees)

My Included Angle on the front left and front right at off by 1 degree almost. 14.0 degrees left, and 14.8 degrees right. With my GTI spindles, it was always at 14.3 to 14.5 degrees. I am quite certain that my spindles are bent.

More about Included Angle here:
http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/included-angle.html

This angle should be purely a function of the spindle's design/geometry, and not affected by other things.

What is the proper Included Angle for the Passat spindles?
 
Last edited:

phil

becausephilchow
Location
Hong Kong
Car(s)
2009 VW R32
Looks like it could be bent. When I did my .:R36 Spindles, my camber was always equal.

Granted, I could adjust that with my Top Hats, but when I watched my shop adjust it, they were both literally in the same spot.

Only other thing I can think of is your subframe not sitting properly. You mentioned that one side had too little and one side had too much?
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
Looks like it could be bent. When I did my .:R36 Spindles, my camber was always equal.

Granted, I could adjust that with my Top Hats, but when I watched my shop adjust it, they were both literally in the same spot.

Only other thing I can think of is your subframe not sitting properly. You mentioned that one side had too little and one side had too much?

I suspected it was a subframe shift issue before, but I went ahead to install the Tyrolsport subframe collars before going back for an alignment, and so the subframe should no longer be a problem.

The camber imbalance is better than last time. (it was -3.0 degrees left, and -2.0 degrees right before). Now, the camber is -2.9 left and -2.3 right. I think the left side might be the bent one, but it is the right hand side that has the Included Angle way off spec. I looked at alignment sheets from B6 Passats on the web, and found the Included Angle to be 14.3 to 14.5 degrees, same as GTI really.

My Included Angles now are 14.0 left, and 14.8 right.
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
Here is the latest alignment printout, with Passat spindles and Tyrolsport subframe collars.




And here is the alignment from before that. Only Passat spindles installed.




Here is the alignment before Passat spindles. No issues with camber.

 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
No panic, Sir. :biggrin:

Included angle simply is SAI + camber, and it's the camber which is little off.
Remember that shop didn't do a good job, obviously on the first two align-
ments. So don't overestimate both the alignment sheet and their opinion.
I'd bet there are at least some improvements possible by shifting subframe
and and rear bush bracket. You guess it - the Tyrolsport collars do impede
this correction work.
I'd consider looking for another alignment shop and of course removing
the collars. First, just see if this makes alignment better. If so, you may
buy new bolts (Audi/Passat + shims) later.
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
No panic, Sir. :biggrin:

Included angle simply is SAI + camber, and it's the camber which is little off.
Remember that shop didn't do a good job, obviously on the first two align-
ments. So don't overestimate both the alignment sheet and their opinion.
I'd bet there are at least some improvements possible by shifting subframe
and and rear bush bracket. You guess it - the Tyrolsport collars do impede
this correction work.
I'd consider looking for another alignment shop and of course removing
the collars. First, just see if this makes alignment better. If so, you may
buy new bolts (Audi/Passat + shims) later.

I am looking at this diagram again:



On our Mcpherson strut cars, the camber is adjusted by moving the top of the strut more inwards. If I understand it correctly, more negative camber will increase the SAI. Increasing the SAI in turn increases the Included angle by the same amount because the wheel is fixed on the spindle, and its inclination can only change if the SAI changes.

If the Tyrolsport collars have fixed all the subframe locating points for effectively zero play and an "exact" fit, then any camber imbalance should only be contributed by camber plates or bent spindles, is that correct?

The diagram seems to suggest that if the camber plates are left at a known setting (-2.5 degrees in this case), and that the subframe is fixed "precisely", then the only way for the camber imbalance is due to bent spindle or control arms.

Is it possible that the something is still bent?
 

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
Anything is possible. Even the collars could be putting the subframe 'precisely' off-center, which is why Bruce suggested taking them out to see if it can be aligned properly.

I also noticed that there is alot of adjustment/shift possible with the tightening of the control arm bolts.

Even though I properly torqued down the control arm bolts with a jack underneath, there was enough permissible shift in the control arm bushing (toe-in, toe-in) that maybe that could be the problem because the left and right track widths can change and give extra camber. Maybe they need to be neutralized and torqued back down during alignment to fix that extra 0.5 degrees of camber imbalance. It IS better though, the imbalance was 1.0 degrees before, and is now only halved that.
 

JRutter

old man
Location
Bellingham, WA
I did some measurements comparing the steering arm length on A3 (MK5) and TT (MK2) swivels and wanted to put the link in this thread as well. I'm not sure if this is the best way to measure, but short of calculating the actual axis of rotation from top strut mount to ball joint, it should be fairly close?

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3748797&postcount=37
 
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