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Track days: Mod my MkV, or, get a new car?

brygx

New member
Location
Seattle
I have an MkV GTI w/ Stage 1 APR ECU and Michelin PSS tires. In my area, the GTI is competitive at autocross but I rarely see them at the track. The typical cars I see are WRX, 335i, 350Z, Corvettes, Caymans, etc. I feel the car is competitive in the twisties (though suffers from body roll), but these cars all pull away at any open stretch. I'm a novice, but I'm still ~5 seconds behind other novices (on a 2-minute lap).

My question is, if I spend $1-2k to bring it up to Stage 2+ (downpipe, intake, tune), will the car be inline with the aforementioned competition? Or should I just trade up at this point? It doesn't seem worth the cost of bolting on a K04 when the car is only worth ~$7k at this point.

Would love an opinion from anyone who tracks a GTI vs. more sportscar-oriented competition. Thanks!
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Location
USA
Car(s)
MK 6 GolfR
I have an MkV GTI w/ Stage 1 APR ECU and Michelin PSS tires. In my area, the GTI is competitive at autocross but I rarely see them at the track. The typical cars I see are WRX, 335i, 350Z, Corvettes, Caymans, etc. I feel the car is competitive in the twisties (though suffers from body roll), but these cars all pull away at any open stretch. I'm a novice, but I'm still ~5 seconds behind other novices (on a 2-minute lap).

Yup there is a reason why those are more typical, they make better track vehicles with fewer mods. I take my GTI to track and it seems to be able to run with the crowd you have listed but it has a lot of mods which means it costs comparatively more to get it to go, stop and turn fast as opposed to a factory car that was designed for that in the first place.

Pick up a Honda S2000 would be my advice and go have fun at the track. Not that expensive, naturally aspirated, plenty of mods available but it can be fun at the track just stock.
 

SuperSkyline89

Das Schiesse
Location
Earth
Car(s)
2008 CW GTI
I autocross and track my GTI every weekend during the summer. As far as the weaknesses and strengths of this car go I have to disagree. The handling is the weakest part of the package.

I ran Michelin PSS for a year and although they're a good do-everything tire they aren't ideal for such a front heavy car. The soft sidewall makes them comfortable but it also severely limits your ability to turn in. I had to run 50psi to keep from rolling onto the sidewall in autocross. I've switched to Hankook R-S3 now and they make the PSS look like a steaming pile of crap in comparison, they're stiffer and louder but the stiffness lets me bomb corners without braking at all where I used to on PSS.

Aside from Stage 1 and PSS what else have you done to your car?

How much experience do you have so far? I would strongly advise against adding power or getting a faster car if you don't have much because you won't know how serious you want to get about it. Here's what I recommend;

- go to a track day with instructors and have one drive you in your car to see what it's actually capable of
- try grippier tires if you can, there's nothing that improves lap times like tires (except driver skill and experience)
- try autocross if you haven't because it lets you find the raged edge of your car's capabilities at low cost and with very little risk, it also exposes just how much the handling limits how you can use the power

What are you trying to achieve? Do you just want to have some fun every now and then in your daily or are you hoping to be a track regular with a dedicated track car?
 

brygx

New member
Location
Seattle
1) That's all I've done to the car, performance-wise, so pretty much stock.

2) I'm a novice, been to 5-10 track days and autocrosses. At track days, I'm way beyond the beginners and at the slower end of the intermediate group. I don't want to be "that guy" holding everyone up so I am paranoid about checking my mirror, when I should be focusing on driving. I don't need to be the fastest car but I want to at least be in the mix.

3) How far I want to go, is probably something like 5-10 track or autocross days a year. Not interested in racing. This is car #3, and not my daily driver.

4) Probably doesn't help that the last 2 track days, my car has thrown a CEL. The first was for low motor oil. The last one was for low boost, which I reset and hasn't come back.

5) I can definitely swap out my tires, I thought PSS was pretty good. It was a dramatic improvement from the worn-down Continental DWS tires I had before. I also probably need to bump up the PSI also because there's a lot of shoulder wear already.
 

Joshohol

Go Kart Champion
Location
Troy NY
Like you said, depends on how much you want to get into it. Who cares how much the car is worth. I paid 14k for mine a few years back and have almost double that in mods. its my fun toy.

If you wanna drop a lot of money on a more expensive to begin with car an then have to mod that vs buying a gti an dumping money into that an ending up in the same category thats up to you.

Personally I think the cayman and the 350z are complete rubbish. Depending on what style vette and wrx you are looking at makes a huge difference.

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Das Gespenst

Go Kart Champion
Location
Glen Ellyn
As someone who has built their GTI as a racecar/track day car I have to say these things can be amazing!If your just looking to get your car more balanced this is what I reccomend.

Stage 2 tune
Quality coilovers
Tires
front and rear sway bars
WALK

It's a pretty decent investment right there but the results are profound! If you do what I suggested you will be more than in the mix.
 

SuperSkyline89

Das Schiesse
Location
Earth
Car(s)
2008 CW GTI
Since it's not your daily you can go as crazy as you want with mods but whether you should depends on your mindset. With myself I never plan to get rid of my car, it'll likely be taken off the road completely one day, I don't care about being the fastest or best car out there, and money isn't a concern so I'm just going crazy with it. With the right mods these cars are a ton of fun but at the end of the day it's an inherently flawed platform and there are cars out there that are far quicker bone stock or with one or two mods. In autocross I have a friend with an NB Miata that cost him $3000 to buy, fix, and get tires for. It's bone stock except the tires and he's faster than me. On the track I'm in the advanced group with the kind of cars you mentioned in your first post. The quickest car is a BRZ with Enkei RPF1's, some kind of sticky tire, and AP Racing brakes. With all I've done E46 M3's and STi's still put distance on me through the corners and the BRZ laps half the group. I can close the gap but these cars are just built to do this kind of thing so they'll always have the advantage.

Based on what you've done so far don't do anything else to the engine. You need tires, brakes, and suspension. Michelin PSS are good tires, I went from Continental all seasons to PSS and it was mind blowing how good they were, so don't feel like you wasted your money. Next time you go to the track or autocross take chalk with you and mark lines on the sidewall. When the tire rolls over the chalk gets worn off and it shows you how much it rolls so you can add pressure. There's a groove maybe a quarter of an inch or less from the tread that you don't want to roll past, if you do you need more pressure. Use the PSS until they're worn out and then try the Hankook Ventus R-S3. Running 35 psi they don't roll onto the sidewall at all and the difference you felt when you went to the PSS will be the difference to the R-S3's. The problem the PSS has is they made the sidewall soft to be comfortable and quiet on the road since so many cars have them from the factory. With a car that has 50/50 weight distribution that's fine but with so much weight up front it really limits your ability to turn in.

For brakes I'd recommend stainless lines, DOT5 race fluid, and upgraded pads. And for suspension a Koni/spring combo and sway bars. To give you an idea of the difference it makes when I first had my coilovers put in they were set soft, by doing nothing but changing the damping to the factory preset I gained 10km/h on every straight. Now imagine if you were able to brake later into a corner, had tires that could turn in harder, and suspension and tires that could hold higher lateral load. You'd also be able to get on the power sooner coming out of the corner. It won't make you instantly faster because you'll need to learn the new limits and work up to them but once you do it'll change everything about how you drive. You'll also notice that even though you don't have more power it feels like you do because you weren't able to use it effectively on stock suspension. I wouldn't do more than that to your car until you've decided how committed you are to it. It'll be a huge improvement but a Miata/BRZ/S2000/M3 will do it right out of the box or with less investment in parts. Keep the stock parts, drive your car for a few years, and if you decide to get a better track car put the stock parts back on and sell everything.

As for holding people up, if a car is behind you it's because they're quicker so if you see someone in your mirrors just signal and let them by. You don't need to be on a constant lookout because a slower car will never be in that position. Check your rear view mirror as you enter the braking zone and as you start accelerating onto the straight. While you're on the straight you should be on one side of the track so just check the opposite exterior mirror every now and then but mostly listen for other cars, you'll hear the engine of any car coming up on you. Until you get into the advanced group you're only allowed to pass on designated straights so if someone's behind you anywhere else just focus on driving clean and making it to that straight safely.

How do you prepare your car before a track day? Do you check anything yourself or take it to a mechanic?
 

brygx

New member
Location
Seattle
First, thanks for your insightful and thorough responses. Really helpful.

Also, I did replace the rear pads when they wore out w/ Hawk HPS 5.0 pads. I think the front still has OEM.

I registered for an autox this coming weekend, and bought a pack of chalk. I'll bring along my portable air compressor and play a bit with the psi. Prepare my car before a track day? I don't do anything other than drink extra coffee in the morning ;-).

I was adding up some of the suggested mods:

SS brake lines: $100 + 3hr labor
Front brake pads: $100 + 1hr labor
Coilovers: $500 + 5hr labor
Sway bars: $400 + 2hr labor
WALK: $200 + 1hr labor
Total: $1300 in parts + $1300 in labor

Engine mods to get to stage 2:
Downpipe: $500 + 1hr labor
HPFP: $350 + 2hr labor
Total: $850 in parts + $300 in labor

So, in total, I'd be looking at a little over $3k. Not insane, and I can probably pick up pieces from other people's part-outs. Which of these mods needs to come first?
 

flat tire

Go Kart Champion
Location
USA
Car(s)
Electric + 135i
Get a new car AND mod your mk5 for the track. Really though...

...A mk5 doesn't NEED many mods for the track, all you NEED are decent tires and track pads + fluid. Well, and motor mounts, although technically you don't NEED them until your stock ones become useless which shouldn't take long.

Also, re your last post, and your goals:

  • You need a GOOD intercooler for the track, period, especially with a tune
  • You don't need an upgraded HPFP for stock turbo on a track car, it doesn't do much (or anything, if you have a stock relief valve / relief valve programming) beyond 4K which is where you'll be spending your time on the track
  • stainless lines don't take nearly 3 hours to install, maybe 1 hour. these look nice but they're honestly not necessary, because stock lines are braided steel also. mine are available for a good price if you want :wink:
  • HPFP is oh, maybe 20 minutes labour, a bit more if you do a rebuild.
  • downpipe from ebay for $150 will serve you as well as anything
  • for a track car, absolutely 100% budget more than $500 for coilovers, you can buy my PSS10 for a great price if you want :wink:
  • put the money for the walk and sways into some really good coilovers for now and you'll be much happier
  • camber plates are pretty much a must have when you've stopped moving up in tire and you need to increase your skidpad

You need to recode the brakes with VCDS as well to remove / reduce the stop assist. There are a few threads here if you search.

With those mods and a tune, you can hang with some of the cars you mention if driver skill is similar, although if well driven the porsches and vettes can be a real threat to this this platform and can definitely leave you for dead without really serious mods on your part.
 

SuperSkyline89

Das Schiesse
Location
Earth
Car(s)
2008 CW GTI
Don't buy $500 coilovers. You get what you pay for with suspension, under $1000 get springs and dampers, over $1000 get coilovers. Always buy name brand stuff (Eibach/KW/Bilstein/Koni/etc) snd if you want to save money look for something used.

Get an oil change and change the brake fluid before a track day. Especially with stock brakes I wouldn't trust old fluid on the track with stock power let alone tuned power.
 

flat tire

Go Kart Champion
Location
USA
Car(s)
Electric + 135i
I dunno how fast that "intermediate" run group is but if it's at all fast I wouldn't do a track day with stock pads / fluid.
 

xSabretoothx

Fast w/ training wheels
Location
Raleigh, NC
Car(s)
2008 GTI
All good advice here, what are going to do OP?


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brygx

New member
Location
Seattle
Signed up for an autox this weekend and I'll see how I feel after ;-). Got an oil change and will play with tire pressure.

Also, picked up a OBDII device and downloaded Torque on my phone. One of these evenings, I'm gonna find an open stretch of road and record the hp/0-60/boost on stage 0/1 just to figure out what I've got.

Finally, -IF- I were to upgrade, I'm leaning towards a 2009+ (987.2) Cayman S. Fits my preference of an understated, nimble, light, sports car. Most of the depreciation is paid for already, so it's probably cheaper to own over 5 yrs than, say, a new-ish S3 or Mustang GT or something.. Open to better suggestions but I'm guessing that's for another thread :).

Also, this is the best apples-to-apples comparison I've found for different cars on the track: http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...results-historical-lap-times-and-more-feature

Golf R: 3:12
MkVII 3:14
MkVI: 3:19
R32: 3:21
MkV: 3:25 (ouch)
2009 Cayman S: 3:05

If you presume a 3:25 baseline for the MkV, if I added the above mods, what would you guess that would do to laptimes (professional driver)?
 

flat tire

Go Kart Champion
Location
USA
Car(s)
Electric + 135i
Depends on the track. VIR is really technical and also has some sections where you open it up so you'd be able to put both the power and handling to use. I don't know how much time all the suggested mods would shave, but I would guess suspension alone will gain you less time than you may think (maybe 10-15 seconds max, more with added neg camber and more if your car is really struggling with inside spin on exit with stock suspension) although it'll make the car a LOT nicer to drive and more composed. Tires will gain you WAY more time than anything once you have adequate brakes.

Oh, and also, forget about this stuff and get the Porsche. They kick ass out of the box on the track.
 

brygx

New member
Location
Seattle
Couple pics of my tires.. the shoulders look quite worn, though you can see the center has a TON of tread. I don't see any evidence though that I rode up onto the sidewall?


 
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