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SWAY BAR DIMENSIONS and discussion

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008

1.

I collected the most interesting sway bar specs that can be used on both
Mk.V and Mk.VI GTI (FWD) and R32/R (4-motion):



car model/manufacturer, front bar dia x wall thickness, rear bar x wall thickness


stock (most are hollow, see wall thickness):


standard Golf/TDI/A3: 21.7x3.0 or 22.5x.3.5 / 18.5x2.5 or 19.6x2.6 or 20.7x2.8

Scirocco: 21.7x3.0 or 22.5x.3.5 / 20.7x2.8 or 21.7x3.0

TT-RS quattro: 22 mm solid / 18.5 x 2.5 mm

A3 Ambition/S-Line: 22,5 x 3,5 / 20,7 x 2,8 (FWD)

Golf V GTI: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,0

Golf V R32: 22,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,0 (4-motion)

Golf VI GTI: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,0 PR-0BF or 21,7 x 3,6 PR-0BM (DCC?)

Golf VI R: 22,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,6 (4-motion)

Scirocco R: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,6

Touran 170 PS: 23,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,0

Passat R36: 23,6 solid / 21,7 x 3,6 (4-motion)

Sharan 2011 on: 24.0 mm solid / 20.0 mm solid



after market (almost all are solid):


H&R TT Quattro: 24 / 22 mm incl. TT-RS

H&R 'small': 26 / 22 mm

Eibach AntiRoll: 26 / 23 mm

KW clubsport: 26 / 23 mm (made by Eibach)

VW Racing: 26 / 23 mm (made by Eibach, discontinued)

ECS: 26 / 23 mm

H&R 'big': 28 / 24 mm (AWE used to sell also a H&R 28 mm rear bar)

H&R 4-motion/Quattro: 24 / 26 mm

034Motorsport: 25.4 mm rear only

Autotech: 25 / 25 mm (tube/hollow; reliability issues)

Whiteline: 24 / 24 mm (3-way adjustable)

Neuspeed: 25 / 25 mm (tube/hollow; also 28 mm rear avail.; reliability issues)

BFI/Stabila: -- / 25 mm rear only (different version for FWD and AWD)

Hotchkis: 27 / 27 mm (tube/hollow)

APR: 27 / 27 mm (tube/hollow; made by Hotchkis)

BSH: -- / 27 mm (3-way) rear only


I don't know if Autotech and Neuspeed do come from the same manufacturer.
Suspiciously both share the same dimensions and similar reliability probs.


2.

I also compared several arm length ratios:



Eibach front 26 mm: 190 and 210 mm
Eibach rear 23 mm: 160 and 175 mm

H&R front 28 mm: 198 and 218 mm
H&R rear 24 mm: 140 and 160 mm

Whiteline front 24 mm: 199, 217 and 235 mm
Whiteline rear 24 mm: 205, 215 and 225 mm


There are some differences, particularly on rear. The H&R are shortest, Whiteline are longest.
Keep in mind H&R kits come with a bigger front bar, so this matches the different arm lengths.


3.

Last not least, an example of sway bar rates:


This is the sway bar stiffness in N/mm.


short arm vs. long arm


- stock front sway bar Mk.V/VI GTI, diameter 23,6 x 3,5 mm - tube:

c = 65,6 N/mm

- H&R front sway bar, diameter 28 mm - solid:

c = 172 N/mm center (~ 156 N/mm long and 188 N/mm short arm)


- stock rear sway bar Mk.V/VI GTI, dia 21,7 x 3 mm - tube:

c = 59,5 N/mm

- H&R rear sway bar, diameter. 24 mm - solid:

c = 122,7 N/mm center (~ 109 N/mm long and 139 N/mm short arm)


Obviously the rear H&R doubles the torsional resistance, the front H&R even is 2.5 to
almost 3 times stiffer.

Used together with common coilovers body roll should be only half as much compared
to stock at the same cornering speed.


Stiffness Specs of 2013 VWR sway bars (but still no proved data on diameter):

VWRPA014A:
1. 56.4N/mm; +32%
2. 69.1N/mm; +44%
3. 86.5N/mm; +55%

VWRPA015B:
1. 50.2N/mm; +9%
2. 66.9N/mm; +31%
3. 93.4N/mm; +51%

VWRPA014B:
1. 88.2N/mm; +46%
2. 116.9N/mm; +59%
3. 161.7N/mm; +70%


The % seem a little bit confusing when proved data states the stock GTI sways
already are 65,6 N/mm front and 59,5 N/mm rear.




Uprated sway bares used together with common coilovers, body roll
should be only half as much compared to stock at the same cornering
speed.



Why I don't recommend fitting a bigger rear sway while leaving the front
one stock:


Bear in mind a GTI's sway bar rates are 65,6 N/mm front and 59,5 N/mm
rear, which equals a 52:48 % ratio, while the weight distribution is 60:40.

In some way we could conclude stock sways already are rear biased !!!

Ok, this is just half the truth. While the GTI's rear sway bar ist still stiffer in
relation to the weight, this isn't necessarily true for roll stiffness, as the roll
center ist also an equally significiant factor. And yes, roll centers aren't same
height front and rear. Unfortunately reliable data is hard to obtain.

However, while a too-stiff rear sway might give you funny turning at lower
speeds and narrow corners, it will also cause dangerous high-speed oversteer.

DO NOT TAKE ANY RISK - THIS IS NO JOKE, DUDES !!!!





http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/BL-281.pdf

http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/010barup.pdf
 
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silversquirrel

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
New England
Bruce:

H and R for "4 motion" A3 quattro is 24 mm F 26 mm R, and MKV R32:

Sway Bar Front, Adj. 2 hole 24mm Ø Adj. 70220 $329.00
Sway Bar Rear, Adj. 2 hole 26mm Ø Adj. 71220 $299.00

This is from HR website, and also I have HR 26mm Rear on my car, so I can confirm.

S
 
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the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
THX, you're right !!

:thumbsup:


Nice!
Do you happen to have the specs for the Golf V 2.0tdi 4Motion as well?


Sadly I don't have the stock specs. Guess it will be in the 21-22 mm area on front and
18.X-21 mm on rear. Currently my ETKA isn't working.

Same aftermarket sways applicable as R32 though. 24/26 mm will be a big improvement.
The TDI 4-motion has a similar drivetrain and gearbox as the R32 and Mk.VI R.
 
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the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
I changed the chart, THX!
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
Some thoughts about different front sway bar diameters:


By using the Whiteline chart derived from 28 mm and assuming same arm length
the 26 mm H&R should be extremely close to these specs:


- stock GTI front sway: dia 23,6 x 3,5 mm - tube

c = 65,6 N/mm


- H&R front sway: dia 28 mm - solid

c = 172 N/mm center (~ 156 N/mm long and ~ 188 N/mm short arm)


- H&R front sway: dia 26 mm - solid

c = 127 N/mm center (~ 115 N/mm long and ~ 139 N/mm short arm)



You will easily recognize the 28 mm is even when set to soft slightly stiffer than
the 26 mm set to stiff. I think you won't feel this marginal difference though.
I strongly believe you won't feel if you run a 26 mm set to stiff or the 28 mm set
to soft.
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
I got a PM asking about front sway bars and my answer might be of general interest:


I know many guys recommend a rear sway only, but I strongly believe they are wrong.
I tried it all on my own: stock sways, 24 mm rear and 28 + 24 mm front and rear with
all possible settings. No doubt both bars was best by far.
Possibly most guys never tried both bars and they parrot half-whisdom on the forums.
A common misconception I believe.

A front sway will reduce overall roll much more than the rear sway, improve steering
(in feel and quicker), turn in and make you car feel more stable. On the other hand it
slightly affects traction on bad roads, but not necessarily on good ones. I was wonde-
ring my self that I didn't have any increase in understeer. I even prefer the stiff setting
of the 28 mm front bar.

To make things short: If you already have a 24 mm rear sway I strongly recommend
at least a 24, 25 or 26 mm front sway bar.


We were talking about this already here:

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120841


Feel free to ask any questions, fellows !!
 
Last edited:

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
Is anyone interested in 28 + 26 mm sways made by H&R?
 
Last edited:

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
Stiffness Specs of 2013 VWR sway bars:

VWRPA014A:
1. 56.4N/mm; +32%
2. 69.1N/mm; +44%
3. 86.5N/mm; +55%

VWRPA015B:
1. 50.2N/mm; +9%
2. 66.9N/mm; +31%
3. 93.4N/mm; +51%

VWRPA014B:
1. 88.2N/mm; +46%
2. 116.9N/mm; +59%
3. 161.7N/mm; +70%
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
:thanks:
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Location
land
Car(s)
Golf GTI Mk.V 2008
You guess what?





 

silversquirrel

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
New England
magnetic ride anti roll bar. thats too cool for school. me want.

I think i read somewhere the new 911 has the same concept, but the hydraulics are in the links, not the torsion bar segment.
 
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