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Still Want That "Cheap to Own" EV?

TheWombat

Go Kart Champion
Location
Vermont
Regardless of where you stand on EVs, it's the lack of consistency in US regulations and policies that is infuriating. Personally, I have no problem with tax incentives to encourage people to buy electric cars. For folks whose situations are such that an EV of the current generation would be a good idea, this can help get them into a type of vehicle that, arguably, can be better for the environment than an ICE choice. And while not ideal, I would not have severe problems, conceptually, with letting the market decide, and leave the incentives up to manufacturers. What I find infuriating is the stupidity of not actually having a national policy of any sort, and being inconsistent. Keeping potential buyers in limbo, no knowing whether the incentives will be there when they want to buy, is dumb. Keeping manufacturers uneasy about how viable making and selling these cars might be is even dumber.

If I was a stockholder in manufacturers of EVs, I'd be kicking up a fuss and insisting the federal government get its shit together. But then, we know that ain't gonna happen no matter who is in power.
 

adam1991

Banned
Location
USA
So we pay people hard cash money to choose cars that then are immune, by definition, to the road tax.

Yeah, that makes sense. <snort>

The only commonality that cars have with regard to road use is weight and tires.

So put the road tax onto tires, and take it away from the fuel.

That tire has a certain load rating with an estimated 40K life? Here's your tax. Oh, the other tire has a different load rating and an estimated 80K life? Here's your tax.

I dunno, just an idea.

The only perfect answer is to get regular inspections that include an odometer reading, and pay some amount calculated on your vehicle's weight and miles. I'm sure everyone would love that. But frankly, I'm not sure how the administrative costs for that weigh out against the not-100%-perfect tire calculation. The tire thing may be cheaper and just as good.

But either of those is better than the fuel tax, and WAY better than paying people to choose cars that avoid the road tax altogether.
 

vjmvjm

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Los Lunas, New Mexico
Car(s)
2016 VW GTI S DSG PP
So put the road tax onto tires, and take it away from the fuel.

Your proposal makes sense. But it will never happen, the tire lobby will contribute to enough congressional campaigns to ensure its demise. Plus, they will claim that poor people won't be able to afford new tires, and will therefore drive on unsafe tires.

Mileage-based taxation seems most rational, but 'murikans are opposed to big brother "tracking" them.
 

southpawboston

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Somerville, MA
I commute to work by bike 5/52. I also own a car (duh) and pay all relevant auto taxes. Angry drivers who try to engage in fights with be like try to point out that I don’t pay taxes for the roads I ride on. I make sure they never try to make that false argument again :)

I agree with the PP about weight x mileage: that is the only fair measure of road usage.
 

adam1991

Banned
Location
USA
Your proposal makes sense. But it will never happen, the tire lobby will contribute to enough congressional campaigns to ensure its demise. Plus, they will claim that poor people won't be able to afford new tires, and will therefore drive on unsafe tires.

Mileage-based taxation seems most rational, but 'murikans are opposed to big brother "tracking" them.

All 100% correct.
 

Chad13762

Go Kart Champion
Location
Henderson NV
I think gas tax is the most fair way of apportioning taxes, since fuel consumption is directly related to vehicle size and mileage....and is inherently a pay-as-you-go system. I'm a Civil Engineer that works on transportation projects, and locally, our road improvements are heavily funded by gas tax. One way or another, someone has to pay the bill. The alternative is crumbling roads, potholes, disappearing striping, and no more capacity improvements. In a world of EV, this means driver's are not paying their fair share.

A possible analog to gas tax would be an amp-hour tax. Put a meter on the socket. Of course assessing that would be complex, since charging within different jurisdictions would mean different tax rates. Collecting and assessing the information - that's where it would get big-brother-ish. It would be do-able with all the technology and connectivity built into cars, but would also require tracking of location.

Or we can have toll roads.....everywhere.
 

TheWombat

Go Kart Champion
Location
Vermont
Given that everyone, even if they don't drive, benefits from good roads (emergency vehicle access, transportation of goods and services, all sorts of stuff), perhaps disassociating infrastructure maintenance costs from any one segment of the economy might be a good idea. Of course, you'd still need the money, which would have to come from general taxation somewhere. I don't think that gas, tire, or any other sort of vehicle-specific tax is that much if any fairer, though, because, again, everyone benefits from good roads.
 

adam1991

Banned
Location
USA
I think gas tax is the most fair way of apportioning taxes, since fuel consumption is directly related to vehicle size and mileage....and is inherently a pay-as-you-go system.

As long as it's kept up to date with fuel mileage regulations and achievements, fine.

But now, as you say, you have to accommodate things that use the road that do NOT use gas.
 

MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
It's easy. Yearly inspection. They collect mileage info which is sent to dmv and registration or renewal is based on mileage.

Problem is tons of people don't register their cars, or get insurance or but new tires. But what can you do. I guess that's where fuel taxation works. You kind of have to pay it
 

southpawboston

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Somerville, MA
It's easy. Yearly inspection. They collect mileage info which is sent to dmv and registration or renewal is based on mileage.

Problem is tons of people don't register their cars, or get insurance or but new tires. But what can you do. I guess that's where fuel taxation works. You kind of have to pay it

You can't base the tax solely on mileage. What if half of your mileage is spent in a state other than the one you are registered in? Are you talking federal gas tax or state gas tax?
 

The Fed

Old Guys Rule
Location
Florida
You can't base the tax solely on mileage. What if half of your mileage is spent in a state other than the one you are registered in? Are you talking federal gas tax or state gas tax?

Good point. Has to be both.

There is no practical way to verify miles driven in some states, like Florida.
 

NoGodGetOverIt

Autocross Champion
Location
NC
Car(s)
2017 GTI SE/DSG
I wouldn't mind mileage-based taxation. I work from home 2-3 days per week, and I've put less than 5K miles on my GTI since I bought it last October... ;)
 

MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
There's no perfect solution.

Gas tax
Pros - is easy to administer and probably has the lowest cost to implement and operate. Easy to track to the right state with very low margin of error. Cons - doesn't tax electric vehicles.

Mileage tax
Pros - will tax all vehicles (including bicycles ??!!*$...Ok, maybe not) according to impact on roads I.e. Miles driven.
Cons- higher margin of error on which state gets the tax as based on residence. Car tracking devices would give more accuracy, but I sure as hell wouldn't want one. That being said, there might be other options for balancing out state to state based on tourism as that's the only big variance. Don't think traveling for work is a huge factor and even then, most get a rental car which can be traced based on rental location.
Other con is estimated 10% administrative cost. That's huge and offsets any benefit of taxing ev's in the first place.

Keep gas tax and add smart chips in ev's that signal charging and tax based on that. But then you would need smart meters as well that can track this.

Anyhoo.
Or just don't pay people anything. Just let the government take all salaries and spend it on operations/military etc and give every citizen free lodging, meals, healthcare, necessities along with a tiny stipend for other things. You laugh but we're almost there.
 

The Fed

Old Guys Rule
Location
Florida
There's no perfect solution.

Gas tax
Pros - is easy to administer and probably has the lowest cost to implement and operate. Easy to track to the right state with very low margin of error. Cons - doesn't tax electric vehicles.

Mileage tax
Pros - will tax all vehicles (including bicycles ??!!*$...Ok, maybe not) according to impact on roads I.e. Miles driven.
Cons- higher margin of error on which state gets the tax as based on residence. Car tracking devices would give more accuracy, but I sure as hell wouldn't want one. That being said, there might be other options for balancing out state to state based on tourism as that's the only big variance. Don't think traveling for work is a huge factor and even then, most get a rental car which can be traced based on rental location.
Other con is estimated 10% administrative cost. That's huge and offsets any benefit of taxing ev's in the first place.

Keep gas tax and add smart chips in ev's that signal charging and tax based on that. But then you would need smart meters as well that can track this.

Anyhoo.
Or just don't pay people anything. Just let the government take all salaries and spend it on operations/military etc and give every citizen free lodging, meals, healthcare, necessities along with a tiny stipend for other things. You laugh but we're almost there.

Raise the cost for registrations of electric cars and give a portion of the increases to your state and the federal government. That's the only way it would work in every state. Charging stations would collect the same taxes as gasoline stations based on Kilowatts delivered, and if you have a home charger it would need to have its own meter. If you have solar cells, the only thing I can think of is to institute excise taxes or tariffs on the manufacturers.
 
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