Vid of noise. Pitch is lower in cabin that recorded (probably poor low end mic roll off). Imagine it with a lower pitch and quieter and that's what it's like.
Bit of ambient hiss as gain was turned up to record it with decent volume.
V
Review: MK5 GTI with HPA SHS, Whiteline ALK and H&R 22mm rear bar
- Thread starter funny
- Start date
Vid of noise. Pitch is lower in cabin that recorded (probably poor low end mic roll off). Imagine it with a lower pitch and quieter and that's what it's like.
Bit of ambient hiss as gain was turned up to record it with decent volume.
Hmm. Found a link on Vortex - seems like people have had issues with the HPA SHS. Perhaps those on Vortex are a bit dramatic but it does show that the shocks are not infallible.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4807583-HPA-SHS-Clunk-Noise-Issue-Ongoing
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4807583-HPA-SHS-Clunk-Noise-Issue-Ongoing
thezoneR32
Ready to race!
- Location
- Adelaide, South Australia
Interesting thread. I actually had this problem with my oem shocks with only 30k on the clock. A clunking noise when you gently apply the brakes, is this the same thing? Fater install of the KW's the noise is still there but quieter. My mechanic described it as a function of how the suspension is set in the veedubs. He said it was some sort of floating setup instead of a fixed one. Not sure exactly what he means.
i lowered to about 10mm too.
the vortex issue is very similar to what i had. (just not reversing, its turning and parking slowly)....i hope the only problem will be the noise... not a dangerous problem, does not affect driveability
maybe this is HPA SHS common issue? and cant be solved?
the vortex issue is very similar to what i had. (just not reversing, its turning and parking slowly)....i hope the only problem will be the noise... not a dangerous problem, does not affect driveability
maybe this is HPA SHS common issue? and cant be solved?
Is your noise similar to mine in the vid melbv?
Mine happens regardless of which way i am going, turning or straight.
I'm pretty sure it is the shock, just dunno what about the shock it is.
Would be nice if it was a simple fix.
Hate to think what the cost of remove, freight there & back, reinstall would be. Might be cheaper to just get a new shock! (if that's possible)
Mine happens regardless of which way i am going, turning or straight.
I'm pretty sure it is the shock, just dunno what about the shock it is.
Would be nice if it was a simple fix.
Hate to think what the cost of remove, freight there & back, reinstall would be. Might be cheaper to just get a new shock! (if that's possible)
That's it exactly!
Email sent to HPA. Will keep the thread posted.
Maybe these units were out of the same KW batch?
Will have to go get serial numbers soon i guess in prep for the eventual question.
Loving the setup, but wonder how much $$ it will be to do the swap.
Cleared the low yellow painted carpark stops at Westfield today with ease. Almost 2inches left spare. Yellow painted stops at pretty much 10cm height.
Will have to try the ones at the Chase as i think they are much higher.
Maybe these units were out of the same KW batch?
Will have to go get serial numbers soon i guess in prep for the eventual question.
Loving the setup, but wonder how much $$ it will be to do the swap.
Cleared the low yellow painted carpark stops at Westfield today with ease. Almost 2inches left spare. Yellow painted stops at pretty much 10cm height.
Will have to try the ones at the Chase as i think they are much higher.
WhiteJames
Fun Nazi
- Location
- Sydney
- Car(s)
- VW Golf GTI MKV
Had a read of the vwvortex.com thread re: HPA KW SHS coilover issue. Looks like a one-off bad batch. Dates seem to correspond for Eugene's SHS build date with a good chance serial no.'s fall within batch build. New for old replacement should limit inconvenience to a degree.
Important to note that many coilovers have an ideal height adjustment range that is less than the entire damper tube adjustment thread range.
See HPA reply to the vwvortex.com complaints:
Cheers
WJ
Important to note that many coilovers have an ideal height adjustment range that is less than the entire damper tube adjustment thread range.
See HPA reply to the vwvortex.com complaints:
Cheers
WJ
It is useful to note that the figures on the HPA site and in the Vortex thread relate to US cars and not Euro as the suspension heights are different.
Current HPA website specs are:
VW Golf / GTI (Mk5) Front lowering 25-55mm Rear lowering 30-55mm
erWin manual lists suspension heights (using centre hub to fender edge measurement) as:
Sports Running Gear GTI (G08) 360+/-10mm Fronts; 365+/-10mm Rears
Sports Running Gear R32 (G09) 362+/-10mm Fronts; 360+/-10mm Rears
Sports Running Gear GTI; US Version (G11) 382+/-10mm Fronts; 380+/-10mm Rears
As you can see the US GTI is 22mm higher at the front and 15mm higher in the rear.
That converts the HPA specs to 3-33mm lowering front, 15-40mm rear for Euro spec suspension.
HPA manual with my kit lists specs as:
Vehicle model VW Jetta V 2.5L (note suspension is cross compatible with GTI/R32 in terms of fitment)
Front
Spring signature KW 1019
Coilover strut/shock signature 100 1007
Min 335mm; Max 365mm (i.e. 0-25mm lowering for Euro GTI)
Rear
Spring signature KW 8007
Coilover strut/shock signature 100 1107
Min 335mm; Max 360mm (i.e. 5-30mm lowering for Euro GTI)
There are some slight differences in specs between the above and there may well have been shock revisions since my kit was made which might account for the differences.
According to the kit instructions (using the remaining thread measurement as per diagram - much easier to measure than centre hub to fender edge) I'm at 10mm lower front, 5mm lower rear.
I have plumb line measurements of the fender edge to floor as well but given the immense variability with that measurement it is too difficult to know when the figure is actually correct (need flat floor, level floor, level side-side as well, etc). Centre hub measurement is much better, but i don't have any gizmo to allow me an accurate centre hub measurement. Good thing the HPA kit comes with figures that are referenced the same way as OEM.
Current HPA website specs are:
VW Golf / GTI (Mk5) Front lowering 25-55mm Rear lowering 30-55mm
erWin manual lists suspension heights (using centre hub to fender edge measurement) as:
Sports Running Gear GTI (G08) 360+/-10mm Fronts; 365+/-10mm Rears
Sports Running Gear R32 (G09) 362+/-10mm Fronts; 360+/-10mm Rears
Sports Running Gear GTI; US Version (G11) 382+/-10mm Fronts; 380+/-10mm Rears
As you can see the US GTI is 22mm higher at the front and 15mm higher in the rear.
That converts the HPA specs to 3-33mm lowering front, 15-40mm rear for Euro spec suspension.
HPA manual with my kit lists specs as:
Vehicle model VW Jetta V 2.5L (note suspension is cross compatible with GTI/R32 in terms of fitment)
Front
Spring signature KW 1019
Coilover strut/shock signature 100 1007
Min 335mm; Max 365mm (i.e. 0-25mm lowering for Euro GTI)
Rear
Spring signature KW 8007
Coilover strut/shock signature 100 1107
Min 335mm; Max 360mm (i.e. 5-30mm lowering for Euro GTI)
There are some slight differences in specs between the above and there may well have been shock revisions since my kit was made which might account for the differences.
According to the kit instructions (using the remaining thread measurement as per diagram - much easier to measure than centre hub to fender edge) I'm at 10mm lower front, 5mm lower rear.
I have plumb line measurements of the fender edge to floor as well but given the immense variability with that measurement it is too difficult to know when the figure is actually correct (need flat floor, level floor, level side-side as well, etc). Centre hub measurement is much better, but i don't have any gizmo to allow me an accurate centre hub measurement. Good thing the HPA kit comes with figures that are referenced the same way as OEM.
Eugene - don't forget that erWin specifies a +/-10mm tolerance from Factory. So, if your ride height wasn't actually measured BEFORE fitting of the HPA kit there's no guarantee you're within HPA's specification for max/min travel on the shocks.
Production variations can easily account for the +/-10mm. HPA are specifying a potential 5-30mm drop for Euro spec'd cars.
I didn't have these issue when the SHS kit was fitted to my R32 - which anyone who drove or traveled in it can attest to. That might have been luck, it might also have been that my installers made a point of measuring the height to match exactly the drop i asked them to do - 10mm from "OEM" as measured.
Production variations can easily account for the +/-10mm. HPA are specifying a potential 5-30mm drop for Euro spec'd cars.
I didn't have these issue when the SHS kit was fitted to my R32 - which anyone who drove or traveled in it can attest to. That might have been luck, it might also have been that my installers made a point of measuring the height to match exactly the drop i asked them to do - 10mm from "OEM" as measured.
I figured the variance was to allow for production tolerance and measurement inaccuracy. That is, technical drawings specify "x" but by the time you allow for tolerance it could be +/- 10mm. Just panel fit/fold alone could account for almost 5mm (or more?).
Given OEM ride height is specified at "x" and the specs from HPA are referenced the same way (i.e. centre hub to fender egde) i would assume there would be no need to allow for the OEM tolerance with the HPA kit (i.e. they also have a tolerance which is simply not stated).
For example - brand spanking new production car off the line - technical spec is really "x" even if tolerance means actual measurement is "x+5".
Swap to HPA immediately = height based on technical spec of "y" which is relative to "x" by way of identical measurement method so measurement would be "y+5" even if spec is "y".
So if amount of drop is based on technical specs which means if i dropped 10mm, the technical ride height is now "x-10" even if it measured OEM as "x+5" in which case actual measurement after drop is actually "x-5".
Therefore as long as i measure the drop according to HPA's diagram and use their specs, the drop relative to what i was OEM should be the same, as the OEM measurement tolerance is the same whether the stock suspension or HPA ones are on.
I would expect that the measurement tolerance on an individual component like a spring or shock would be far more accurate than +/-10mm, so the difference re: tolerance between OEM and HPA suspension components which are interchanged should be minimal (certainly less than +/-10mm i would have thought!)
I'd be interested how they measured to allow sufficient repeatability unless they have some sort of hub-centred way of measurement?
Mmm, but they're talking about shock travel from the other forum posts. So unless you measured the height of the stock shocks and matched the new under load, your assumptions will let you down. The issues seem to stem, in some cases, from operating outside of the limits of the shock/spring combination's 'working travel'.
Even measuring ride height alone can provide inconsistent results as there's no guarantee the geometry in the car is square - WJ mentioned something about this on his original White Mk5 GTI after getting the V3's installed, from memory. The ride height tolerance is a combination of manufacturing limits for all suspension components - not just springs/shocks AND their fitting in the car.
The only definitive way is to ensure, when at rest under weight, the piston rod exposed section is consistent with figures from HPA. This will show that at least your starting point is within tolerance. You should be able to remove the wheel from the car, lower the lower arm onto a stand to take the weight of the car per a wheel and then measure. This is the only way i can think of to remove all of the other variables and leave just the shock travel as the thing you're checking. Otherwise, any other variations in the geometry/parts will add up to change the result. You'll still need to 'tune' the ride height of the car to make sure it's sitting square, but the base point should be making sure the shock is within working limits and then adjusting any tolerance issues out of the car.
The 'safe' option without all this mucking around is to just make sure you lower the car within HPA/KW's specs... and you'll have to ask HPA what they are because just assuming you can take 10mm off the thread on the shock isn't going to work either from what they've posted. Ideally i'd try and measure the piston rod length when under car weight to determine it's 'natural' position and check where this is within the range HPA/KW suggest is optimum for the shock.
Even measuring ride height alone can provide inconsistent results as there's no guarantee the geometry in the car is square - WJ mentioned something about this on his original White Mk5 GTI after getting the V3's installed, from memory. The ride height tolerance is a combination of manufacturing limits for all suspension components - not just springs/shocks AND their fitting in the car.
The only definitive way is to ensure, when at rest under weight, the piston rod exposed section is consistent with figures from HPA. This will show that at least your starting point is within tolerance. You should be able to remove the wheel from the car, lower the lower arm onto a stand to take the weight of the car per a wheel and then measure. This is the only way i can think of to remove all of the other variables and leave just the shock travel as the thing you're checking. Otherwise, any other variations in the geometry/parts will add up to change the result. You'll still need to 'tune' the ride height of the car to make sure it's sitting square, but the base point should be making sure the shock is within working limits and then adjusting any tolerance issues out of the car.
The 'safe' option without all this mucking around is to just make sure you lower the car within HPA/KW's specs... and you'll have to ask HPA what they are because just assuming you can take 10mm off the thread on the shock isn't going to work either from what they've posted. Ideally i'd try and measure the piston rod length when under car weight to determine it's 'natural' position and check where this is within the range HPA/KW suggest is optimum for the shock.
I followed the HPA diagram below. Note that there is a relation between spindle thread type measurement and hub centre to fender measurement (which is directly relatable to OEM/erWin stock hub centre to fender measurements for comparison or relative drop)
Using the "A" method is easiest as there is very little measurement error unlike the hub centre method, unless you have some tool that gives you the hub centre (then find a dead flat level surface).
"A" method is even easy to measure on or off the car as it is not affected by anything other than how the strut was manufactured and where the spring seats are.
Just cut some card to the size you need, jack car, shove in appropriate spot and check if it's still the same.
So in this case total shock length has nothing to do with it as you would assume HPA's production means as long as you are within their specs, the shock length is in the appropriate range for ideal function. Note that you can alter outside the range but it obviously puts the shock somewhere it doesn't like to be. Note also that lots of US guys like to drop heaps which may put them outside the shock travel ideal range, thought some of the Vortex sufferers seemed to be in spec.
Having it outside of spec would mean the left front should be out as well, as it is matched.
Using the "A" method is easiest as there is very little measurement error unlike the hub centre method, unless you have some tool that gives you the hub centre (then find a dead flat level surface).
"A" method is even easy to measure on or off the car as it is not affected by anything other than how the strut was manufactured and where the spring seats are.
Just cut some card to the size you need, jack car, shove in appropriate spot and check if it's still the same.
So in this case total shock length has nothing to do with it as you would assume HPA's production means as long as you are within their specs, the shock length is in the appropriate range for ideal function. Note that you can alter outside the range but it obviously puts the shock somewhere it doesn't like to be. Note also that lots of US guys like to drop heaps which may put them outside the shock travel ideal range, thought some of the Vortex sufferers seemed to be in spec.
Having it outside of spec would mean the left front should be out as well, as it is matched.
HPA Dirtections said:
That is - the spring may be compressed/uncompressed further and hence the shock lower/higher depending on the actual weight of your vehicle... which is, ironically enough, what i said above. AS they indicate - it's useful as a quick guide but nothing more as if you're sitting right on the limit and the car weighs a bit extra, then you'll be over the limit. Add to this the figures are from a Jetta 2.5L - which is different in front axle weight to both GTI and R32 - and you're left with more questions than answers.
I'm surprised HPA are suggesting either of those two methods as neither eliminate variation in manufacturing tolerance of the car to ensure the shock/spring are set up correctly. I'd be hitting HPA/KW up to find out what the actual min/max for the piston rod exposed section are and using that as it eliminates all other variables and focuses purely on the shock being within 'manufacturers tolerance'.
That's not to say you don't have a faulty shock!
Well it's been a bit over 2 weeks now and more Kms. Groan noise is still there, if anything it has now become much more consisent and a bit louder - to the point where it is obvious to anyone now from inside. It is now more squeak than groan due to the volume increase. It's not ear splitting by any means but it is loud enough to be a constant reminder that is there.
Now that it is louder it's obvious that it is goin on most of the time except over a certain speed limit - again i don't konw if that's when it disappears (which might indicate a valving issue) or if it's just drowned out by other noise.
Still does't seem to have affected handling but then again changes may be subtle. I guess it would be obvious if it was completely dead but it is not yet.
Now that it is louder it's obvious that it is goin on most of the time except over a certain speed limit - again i don't konw if that's when it disappears (which might indicate a valving issue) or if it's just drowned out by other noise.
Still does't seem to have affected handling but then again changes may be subtle. I guess it would be obvious if it was completely dead but it is not yet.