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More EVs Catching on Fire

Thumper1

Autocross Newbie
Location
Sedalia, MO
Car(s)
2018 Audi TTRS
If that bothers you, you're going to shit your pants to learn how much the government has subsidized oil and coal over the last 100 years. lol.
I am well aware, and the massive subsidies to the ethanol industry, what's your point? End all subsidies which is what we should do and let the best win is exactly what we should do. You realize saying subsidies are bad for the oil and coal industry is an indictment of the subsidies for the green industry, not a defense right?



https://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2019/09/23/energy-subsidies-renewables-fossil-fuels/

Any other well thought out points you want to lob out there? Or are you too busy shitting your pants? LMAO ;)

In a logical and factual world bad things are bad, doesn't matter if you agree with one side and not the other. That's the slippery slope to the chaos we are in now all over the world. People attacking one group for doing the exact same thing they themselves did already or want to do if given the chance because their goal is "noble".

In a world where anything is acceptable if it is for the "greater good" everyone loses.

Amusingly, I went to college for an EE/Physics major, but realized that EV's weren't really feasible at the time. But keep making assumptions and trying to posit a false strawman without offering any solutions. Saying "a better solution" isn't actually providing a better solution. What do you have in mind, use actual examples of feasible technology. Like I said, it isn't hydrogen.
What's amusing is A) the person throwing out fallacious argument after fallacious argument (including using actual Strawman attacks against me) accusing me of a Strawman....and B) clearly not understanding what a Strawman is. LMAO But hey, your degree isn't in English so we'll give you a pass.

I agree that just saying "a better solution" is not in itself an actual solution. Yet that is your actual position. You literally stated that EVs shouldn't be the end result. So what's your solution? My position which has already been clearly stated several times and willfully ignored in your very real Strawman attacks is that we should be finding the solution not wasting money on an industry that is NOT the solution and no cleaner and likely worse than the previous industry. Money spent bailing out green companies could be spent funding research to find a real solution. You act like the green industry is out there searching for a different method; they aren't. They take every dollar they are handed and sink it into more of the same, they are not spending a single second trying to find a cleaner solution.

Read very clearly what has already been stated multiple times, so maybe you can stop misstating my position. Fossil fuels cause damage to the environment in harvesting them, and I am against excessive and avoidable destruction. Harvesting the materials for batteries, solar panels, and the stator parts of a turbine cause damage to the environment. In addition these materials are toxic waste and must be recycled where possible and rendered inert for storage where not possible after their EOL. This causes additional damage to the environment which is avoidable. So let's avoid it, and find a new way.

Continuing to use the green methods is akin to finding out chemo therapy is not helping a patient, but continuing to use it anyway because there is no other solution. Both actions are killing the patient to avoid killing the patient. It's madness.


To your point about sad pools of heavy metals, I'm still going with the argument that full life cycle, from extraction, transport, refining, distribution and finally consumer usage, there isn't an easy answer to say that it's cleaner or worse than current battery methods, but there's absolutely opportunity for the battery side to improve and nearly no room for oil to change, aside from possibly worse if you're going to depend on fracking and environmental impact related to that.
So with no evidence to support it, you make a grandiose claim that it must be better? You get how laughable that is right? After you finish stabbing the scientific method in the back do you like to kick it in the head a few times too? The only improvement available to batteries is to make them more efficient to make them smaller. Which may only barely offset the need for more and more materials to actually make a 1 for 1 conversion from ICE vehicle to EV vehicles on the road. Which means improving batteries to use 30% less material is not a gain when you then need 70% more material to build that many more batteries. There is no improvement available to them to stop damaging the environment in their production and EOL collection.

Since you are either trolling or incapable of the argument in the first place this conversation is pointless unless you actual start defending your wild statements. So, since you brought it up (I already addressed it previously but you of course ignored it to go on a wild tangent) answer this SIMPLE question without deflecting, without making fallacious statements.

Why is fracking for oil bad......and fracking for lithium good? No dodging about "Oh, well, batteries are better ultimately because I feel that way.....so the damage is ok, yeah.....". It is the most basic and concise example in this topic, if there's no addressing this logically there's no point. Why is fracking for lithium in Chile than shipping to China for processing, then Japan for assembly, then across the globe GOOD, and fracking for oil and gas in Colorado to be shipped to Wyoming for processing and then across the US only BAD???
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
I am well aware, and the massive subsidies to the ethanol industry, what's your point? End all subsidies which is what we should do and let the best win is exactly what we should do. You realize saying subsidies are bad for the oil and coal industry is an indictment of the subsidies for the green industry, not a defense right?



https://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2019/09/23/energy-subsidies-renewables-fossil-fuels/

Any other well thought out points you want to lob out there? Or are you too busy shitting your pants? LMAO ;)

In a logical and factual world bad things are bad, doesn't matter if you agree with one side and not the other. That's the slippery slope to the chaos we are in now all over the world. People attacking one group for doing the exact same thing they themselves did already or want to do if given the chance because their goal is "noble".

In a world where anything is acceptable if it is for the "greater good" everyone loses.



What's amusing is A) the person throwing out fallacious argument after fallacious argument (including using actual Strawman attacks against me) accusing me of a Strawman....and B) clearly not understanding what a Strawman is. LMAO But hey, your degree isn't in English so we'll give you a pass.

I agree that just saying "a better solution" is not in itself an actual solution. Yet that is your actual position. You literally stated that EVs shouldn't be the end result. So what's your solution? My position which has already been clearly stated several times and willfully ignored in your very real Strawman attacks is that we should be finding the solution not wasting money on an industry that is NOT the solution and no cleaner and likely worse than the previous industry. Money spent bailing out green companies could be spent funding research to find a real solution. You act like the green industry is out there searching for a different method; they aren't. They take every dollar they are handed and sink it into more of the same, they are not spending a single second trying to find a cleaner solution.

Read very clearly what has already been stated multiple times, so maybe you can stop misstating my position. Fossil fuels cause damage to the environment in harvesting them, and I am against excessive and avoidable destruction. Harvesting the materials for batteries, solar panels, and the stator parts of a turbine cause damage to the environment. In addition these materials are toxic waste and must be recycled where possible and rendered inert for storage where not possible after their EOL. This causes additional damage to the environment which is avoidable. So let's avoid it, and find a new way.

Continuing to use the green methods is akin to finding out chemo therapy is not helping a patient, but continuing to use it anyway because there is no other solution. Both actions are killing the patient to avoid killing the patient. It's madness.




So with no evidence to support it, you make a grandiose claim that it must be better? You get how laughable that is right? After you finish stabbing the scientific method in the back do you like to kick it in the head a few times too? The only improvement available to batteries is to make them more efficient to make them smaller. Which may only barely offset the need for more and more materials to actually make a 1 for 1 conversion from ICE vehicle to EV vehicles on the road. Which means improving batteries to use 30% less material is not a gain when you then need 70% more material to build that many more batteries. There is no improvement available to them to stop damaging the environment in their production and EOL collection.

Since you are either trolling or incapable of the argument in the first place this conversation is pointless unless you actual start defending your wild statements. So, since you brought it up (I already addressed it previously but you of course ignored it to go on a wild tangent) answer this SIMPLE question without deflecting, without making fallacious statements.

Why is fracking for oil bad......and fracking for lithium good? No dodging about "Oh, well, batteries are better ultimately because I feel that way.....so the damage is ok, yeah.....". It is the most basic and concise example in this topic, if there's no addressing this logically there's no point. Why is fracking for lithium in Chile than shipping to China for processing, then Japan for assembly, then across the globe GOOD, and fracking for oil and gas in Colorado to be shipped to Wyoming for processing and then across the US only BAD???

Literally every major industry in the US has relied on defense or direct government subsidies.

You sound like one of those moron libertarians. Not worth my time. Technology and regulation will mature and electric cars and residential solar will dominate the market in the future. It's going to happen no matter how many tears you shed on the internet.

And it seems like you think fracking and mining are the same process. I could be wrong, so let's see a source that the fracking process is used in lithium mining.
 
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Thumper1

Autocross Newbie
Location
Sedalia, MO
Car(s)
2018 Audi TTRS
You sound like one of those moron libertarians. Not worth my time.

Technology and regulation will mature and electric cars and residential solar will dominate the market in the future. It's going to happen no matter how many tears you shed on the internet.
Wow, what an amazing debate method. Very intelligent and reasoned. You know, with no facts or supports and more personal attacks of course, very convincing.

And don't feel bad, you haven't actually spent a lot of time on it, throwing out basic insults and short unresearched paragraphs. You've only got about what, 6 maybe 7 minutes out of your day.


And it seems like you think fracking and mining are the same process. I could be wrong, so let's see a source that the fracking process is used in lithium mining.
It seems that you think you know everything, without bothering to even take a second to research it. Clearly you have no idea about how lithium is obtained, and it would have taken you 5 minutes to gain some knowledge on your own even with all the misinformation and whitewashing attempts to downplay the environmental impacts based on the supposed trade-off out there. Yet you couldn't be bothered, you rather decided to continue a conversation you had no knowledge of still pressing your point with no supports of your own assured for some reason of your superiority. That kind of willful ignorance is exactly how we end up standing ankle deep in sludge.

The ignorant push to run down the cloudy and shrouded road of "green" technology full speed with our eyes closed will continue to cause catastrophic impacts to the environment and mankind.......no matter how many insults and wild accusations you dump out on the internet.

Some lithium (a small minority) is extracted from ore mined in the traditional way, which changes nothing because the same question applies; we have been told mining for coal was evil, how is mining for lithium different? Other than after you get lithium out of the ground in mined ore you still have to leach it out of the rock with chemicals. However, the vast majority is drilled out of the ground just like oil. In particularly solid deposits, they pump liquid into the deposit to break it up first. And that doesn't even scratch the proverbial surface once you learn about what happens next, either using gobs of energy to boil the water off or months to years left baking in the sun leaching out various deadly chemicals and byproducts.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

https://www.samcotech.com/what-is-lithium-extraction-and-how-does-it-work/

https://www.zmescience.com/science/lithium-mining-098534/


Now, while I have actually spent time and effort on this topic and pay attention to the realities and science (not wishes and feelings) I won't say you are not worth my time. However, I would say that I see no reason to continue this discourse with you in this manner. At any point if you wish to have a reasoned and intelligent debate with facts and civilized discussions that would be great.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
So you're saying you don't know how gas fracking works and are misapplying it other forms of mining? Got it.

And pretty sure the coal dust killing the miners and the pollution caused by the burned coal is the major opposition to coal.

You're a walking and breathing Dunning Kruger exhibit.
 
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GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
For anyone that actually wants to know how lithium is mined without having to listen to this moron. It's nothing like gas fracking.

If you don't want to read the entire thing.

"While it’s true that chemicals are used to refine lithium after it is collected, potential dangers pale compared to those from fracking, which involves pumping harsh chemicals underground to break up shale layers to free natural gas, which can lead to groundwater pollution and even cause minor earthquakes".

https://earthtalk.org/lithium-ion/
 
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jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
Who has a problem with someone buying a Tesla and charging it at home with solar and storing the electricity produced in their batteries?
 

FROSTYmk7.5

Ready to race!
Location
Denver Colorado
Car(s)
mk7.5 golf gti 6MT
I saw a video last year about a researcher who invented a lithium battery that did not catch on fire even if it was shorted. So you know safety isn't the first thing on carmakers minds. This newer article could give you pause about buying a new VW EV. You might want to find out how much nickel is in the batteries they use. And to be fair, driving a DI gas car where the fuel is compressed to 3,000 PSI doesn't sound particularly safe either.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/com...oot-as-evs-take-off/ar-BB1a55f1?ocid=msedgntp
I didn't know external combustion motors were a thing....
 

Thumper1

Autocross Newbie
Location
Sedalia, MO
Car(s)
2018 Audi TTRS
So you're saying you don't know how gas fracking works and are misapplying it other forms of mining? Got it.

And pretty sure the coal dust killing the miners and the pollution caused by the burned coal is the major opposition to coal.
I seem to be saying a lot of things through your mouth. Odd. It's just sad the way you seem to pick and choose what deadly chemicals you are offended by. Fracking chemicals bad.....chemical pools for lithium...good.....

Coal dust and pollution are bad, but I guess what YOU are saying is that dangerous exposure to lithium, toxic chemicals, and depletion and destruction of ground water is just A-ok.

And let's pick and chose dueling quotes? I love that I provide 3 sources and you provide one, specifically picking the one over used "debunk" of an internet meme poking fun at the lithium crowd. Solid research done there to debunk a FB meme. Ignoring any opposing views with more facts.

“Like any mining process, it is invasive, it scars the landscape, it destroys the water table and it pollutes the earth and the local wells,” said Guillermo Gonzalez, a lithium battery expert from the University of Chile, in a 2009 interview. “This isn’t a green solution – it’s not a solution at all.”

In the United States, Canada, and Australia, lithium is usually extracted from the rock by using more traditional methods. Nevertheless, this still requires the use of chemicals in order to extract it in a useful form. In Nevada, the research found impacts on fish 150 miles downstream from a lithium processing operation, for example.

A report by Friends of the Earth argued that extracting lithium can affect the soil and causes air contamination. In the area Salar del Hombre Muerto in Argentina, residents complain that lithium polluted streams that are used by humans and livestock, while in Chile there were clashes between mining firms and locals.



So yeah, whatever dude. Stay ignorant, think I'm ignorant, I really don't care. Unlike you my self worth is not measured by the opinion of a random internet loudmouth. You can lob all the insults you want at me, it doesn't change the reality, it doesn't suck the poison out of the ground, and it certainly doesn't stop the catastrophic mess our grandkids will be cleaning up.

But if it makes you feel all big and special all right then.

(y)
 

JC_451

Autocross Champion
Location
NJ
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
Say what you will, but mining for rare earth metals is -devastating- to the environment.

It just happens mostly in out of the way places where we don't have to see it.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
I seem to be saying a lot of things through your mouth. Odd. It's just sad the way you seem to pick and choose what deadly chemicals you are offended by. Fracking chemicals bad.....chemical pools for lithium...good.....

Coal dust and pollution are bad, but I guess what YOU are saying is that dangerous exposure to lithium, toxic chemicals, and depletion and destruction of ground water is just A-ok.

And let's pick and chose dueling quotes? I love that I provide 3 sources and you provide one, specifically picking the one over used "debunk" of an internet meme poking fun at the lithium crowd. Solid research done there to debunk a FB meme. Ignoring any opposing views with more facts.

“Like any mining process, it is invasive, it scars the landscape, it destroys the water table and it pollutes the earth and the local wells,” said Guillermo Gonzalez, a lithium battery expert from the University of Chile, in a 2009 interview. “This isn’t a green solution – it’s not a solution at all.”

In the United States, Canada, and Australia, lithium is usually extracted from the rock by using more traditional methods. Nevertheless, this still requires the use of chemicals in order to extract it in a useful form. In Nevada, the research found impacts on fish 150 miles downstream from a lithium processing operation, for example.

A report by Friends of the Earth argued that extracting lithium can affect the soil and causes air contamination. In the area Salar del Hombre Muerto in Argentina, residents complain that lithium polluted streams that are used by humans and livestock, while in Chile there were clashes between mining firms and locals.



So yeah, whatever dude. Stay ignorant, think I'm ignorant, I really don't care. Unlike you my self worth is not measured by the opinion of a random internet loudmouth. You can lob all the insults you want at me, it doesn't change the reality, it doesn't suck the poison out of the ground, and it certainly doesn't stop the catastrophic mess our grandkids will be cleaning up.

But if it makes you feel all big and special all right then.

(y)
You missed the part where lithium has less impact than fossil fuels, no one claimed it had zero. Also, future battery technology won't necessarily use lithium.

It's Ok though, it's going to happen even if you cry and whine. Science has a habit of saving dumbasses from themselves.
 
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golfdave

Autocross Champion
Location
Scotland (U.K.)
Car(s)
MK7 Golf GT Estate
Who has a problem with someone buying a Tesla and charging it at home with solar and storing the electricity produced in their batteries?
Best solution out of the current solutions...

However......

Most peoples house (depending on country/city/etc) or flat they may not be allowed solar panels on roof due to conservation area status, planning rules, or roof not suitable.

So they have to charge from the mains grid...which is not capable of providing charging points for even approx. 1 in 4 houses....I used to work for the local electric board & the cables in the ground down the street DO NOT even cope with everybody trying to draw the max 100A/230V at the main incomer fuse (like many think it can) as the whole system is based on usage, not max theoretical allowed...& this is common practice throughout the world..

So then add a few fast chargers...plus everybody jumping from gas fire central heating boilers to electric heating & electric showers etc......LOL...FAIL....

Had an interesting conversation with a electric supply company at a recent EV/eco convention (before lockdown)....bloke agreed that the infrastructure of cables/substations etc needs to be radically upgraded to get to where the political & the eco lot expect it to be....so expect roads to be due up for new cables, & more "brown outs" as they have to use the "smart meters" to cut your supply off as you are drawing too much etc. etc...
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
Best solution out of the current solutions...

However......

Most peoples house (depending on country/city/etc) or flat they may not be allowed solar panels on roof due to conservation area status, planning rules, or roof not suitable.

So they have to charge from the mains grid...which is not capable of providing charging points for even approx. 1 in 4 houses....I used to work for the local electric board & the cables in the ground down the street DO NOT even cope with everybody trying to draw the max 100A/230V at the main incomer fuse (like many think it can) as the whole system is based on usage, not max theoretical allowed...& this is common practice throughout the world..

So then add a few fast chargers...plus everybody jumping from gas fire central heating boilers to electric heating & electric showers etc......LOL...FAIL....

Had an interesting conversation with a electric supply company at a recent EV/eco convention (before lockdown)....bloke agreed that the infrastructure of cables/substations etc needs to be radically upgraded to get to where the political & the eco lot expect it to be....so expect roads to be due up for new cables, & more "brown outs" as they have to use the "smart meters" to cut your supply off as you are drawing too much etc. etc...
It's quite a bit different in Phoenix. Everyone I know who has a Tesla has home solar charging with battery storage.
 

golfdave

Autocross Champion
Location
Scotland (U.K.)
Car(s)
MK7 Golf GT Estate
It's quite a bit different in Phoenix. Everyone I know who has a Tesla has home solar charging with battery storage.

Like I said it all depends on the place where you live....terraced rows of brick built 150yr old houses with on street parking no front gardens & small roof space..totally inadequate for solar panels or EV charging....or 200yr old houses in a conservation area which doesn't allow solar on the roof...or a modern block of flats...so many places in countries where land is expensive or where there is high density housing....

out in the middle of nowhere where the land is cheap..no problem for solar panels etc...


Solar panels charging on site battery storage & having an EV car is a good system..just implementing it in many homes/cities etc is VERY problematic...just wish the eco lot & politicians realise it, but they instead listen to the BS from the marketing lot...
 
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