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Mods to improve cooling?

PandaGTI

Go Kart Champion
Tracking out here in Socal means very hot temps... so wanting to get an idea of what kind of mods makes a significant difference mainly as far as engine and brakes.

I already have an external oil cooler from INA Engineering which keeps the temps from going into the red, and allows me to at least get 1/2 a track session in without having to back off on the throttle to keep engine temps in check. The external oil cooler also adds a little more capacity which helps to distribute the heat among the oil better (INA's oil pan will even improve this, but even though they've advertised it for the past year they still haven't built it)

So as far as engine goes, has anyone done the "polar bear" mod? which is to take sheets of metal or aluminum to seal the radiator to the bumper so air is forced right in and through the radiator/ intercooler? any advantage or disadvantage to this?

Has anyone done a water misting system that sprays a mist of water right in front of the radiator/ intercooler? I'm thinking it can be setup to spray a fine mist at 3/4ths to full throttle once engine temps get past a certain point... advantage? disadvantage?

as far as braking goes... would ditching the dust shields make a significant difference? even with my BBK... multiple 100+ to 40 mph stops still overheated my fluid to the point that it boiled out of the bleeder valves ruining the finish on my calipers... grrrr

If I ditch the dust shields, any advantage or disadvantage? what needs to be covered up with gold tape to protect from heat? will this be significant? or am I better off getting brake ducts and feeding it into the dust shield?
 

confuc1ous

Go Kart Champion
Would it make more sense to get an all aluminum radiator with some upgraded hoses and perhaps a better or bigger radiator fan? Perhaps use a higher temp coolant in your system mated to a low temperature thermostat? I've even seen people on auto-x days take off their front bumper to lessen any air restriction.

I know its a dumb question but are you using a DOT4 in the brake reservoir?
 

PRND[S]

The Lame & The Ludicrous
The APR MKVIs still have the stock honeycomb front so the only air they are getting is through the normal air path to the radiator.

Those cars race in 100 degree temperatures for far longer than we do, and on tracks that have substantial elevation changes. On the other hand, I think they're still on K03s as well.
 

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PandaGTI

Go Kart Champion
Would it make more sense to get an all aluminum radiator with some upgraded hoses and perhaps a better or bigger radiator fan? Perhaps use a higher temp coolant in your system mated to a low temperature thermostat? I've even seen people on auto-x days take off their front bumper to lessen any air restriction.

I know its a dumb question but are you using a DOT4 in the brake reservoir?

Using RBF 600 with Hawk DTC-60 pads...

maybe I'm just braking too hard... that only happened after the first session... had severe brake fade. Came into the pits with the brakes smoking as the brake fluid was leaking all over the calipers.

I bled the brakes in the pit and was fine for the next 3 session with no brake fade, but I was a little more conservative with the braking.

I think one of the factors is that I am using much grippier tires (Hankook RS3's vs faded Direzza Star Specs). I could be hard on the brakes with the Hankook's and they don't slide over the pavement and lock up like the Star Specs did.

The APR MKVIs still have the stock honeycomb front so the only air they are getting is through the normal air path to the radiator.

Those cars race in 100 degree temperatures for far longer than we do, and on tracks that have substantial elevation changes. On the other hand, I think they're still on K03s as well.

That's the big difference... running the Ko3's.

I had no issues as far as cooling when I was tracking with the Ko3.

With the Ko4, the external oil cooler helps... but I need something more.

The "Polar Bear" mod retains the stock air path and honeycomb... but it seals the air path from letting air escape into the bumper and around the radiator... instead it forces the air into the radiator area.

PolarBear pictures is no the 2nd page http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110512
 
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Erwan1

Go Kart Champion
Brakes: better brake fluid (higher boiling point), you could build some ducts to cool your calliper better. I removed my duct shields without issue so far...can't say that they do or don't make a difference but I would think they would (heat is not being reflected back on the caliper/rotor...although some say the duct also guides air around that area...try without see what happens.

Motor: Bigger aluminium rad would be best but don't think they exist for our cars yet. You could try something like http://www.engineice.com but not sure it is 'vw certified'...really not sure what the VW coolant has in it that makes it so special but worth doing some more research into a different coolant maybe?


Have you ever tried any other tunes? I have nothing against GIAC but it could be that your car is also running really not because of the tune AND higher temperature.


edit: you posted as I was writing this
 

RacingManiac

Drag Race Newbie
Ducted rad definitely will help, you will force more air through the rad core as opposed to going "around" it...
 

PandaGTI

Go Kart Champion
Brakes: better brake fluid (higher boiling point), you could build some ducts to cool your calliper better. I removed my duct shields without issue so far...can't say that they do or don't make a difference but I would think they would (heat is not being reflected back on the caliper/rotor...although some say the duct also guides air around that area...try without see what happens.

Motor: Bigger aluminium rad would be best but don't think they exist for our cars yet. You could try something like http://www.engineice.com but not sure it is 'vw certified'...really not sure what the VW coolant has in it that makes it so special but worth doing some more research into a different coolant maybe?


Have you ever tried any other tunes? I have nothing against GIAC but it could be that your car is also running really not because of the tune AND higher temperature.


edit: you posted as I was writing this

I was thinking of adding Mocool from Motul... I used it when I was stage 1 and it didn't upset anything, I think the temp was a tiny bit south from the 12 o clock position with regular driving.

I just didn't do it this time because unless you flush the fluid, adding it through the coolant reservoir will take weeks to circulate through the system. I might just add it since the next track day is weeks away.

I'm gonna ditch the brake shields and see what happens... anything I need to wrap up with protective tape to protect from heat? what sux is that I'll have to refinish the calipers at the end of the track season. But I guess that's normal even with Brembo's (that's why around the track they are called Brownbo's as the paint gets boiled off... lol)

My tech is gonna look into getting a radiator fabricated. In the past we tried fitting a Mishimoto radiator from the FSI engine and that didn't work out. To this date Mishimoto still doesnt have enough demand to do a TSI motor.

As far as tune... the GIAC software makes the same power at lower boost levels which actually helps the turbo run a little cooler and is less prone to damage on the track... with all the track days I have my turbo is still fine where as I've even seen Ko3's from other tunes needing replacement.
 

A_Bowers

Moderator
The APR MKVIs still have the stock honeycomb front so the only air they are getting is through the normal air path to the radiator.

Those cars race in 100 degree temperatures for far longer than we do, and on tracks that have substantial elevation changes. On the other hand, I think they're still on K03s as well.

If I'm seeing the picture correctly the cars have ducts where the fog lights used to be. Directly cooling the brakes. Seen this done on just about all road course cars.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

PRND[S]

The Lame & The Ludicrous
Yeah, you're probably right about the brake cooling.

I have been thinking about the "Polar Bear" mod. I can envision circumstances where it might actually reduce cooling by creating a pocket of low-velocity air in front of the radiator, and keeping air from going through the grille. With the OEM design the air will always be travelling through the grille and to the radiator at a fairly high speed and bleed off any excess that the radiator can't flow.

My engine temps are stable and don't get excessively high so I'm not sure that there is much of a benefit for me. The DSG temps should be stable as well due to the heat exchange with the radiator, and I have not had my DSG overheat yet -- that includes a two-day HPDE at Streets of Willow last summer when temperatures were well into the triple digits by 11AM.
 

PandaGTI

Go Kart Champion
Yeah, you're probably right about the brake cooling.

I have been thinking about the "Polar Bear" mod. I can envision circumstances where it might actually reduce cooling by creating a pocket of low-velocity air in front of the radiator, and keeping air from going through the grille. With the OEM design the air will always be travelling through the grille and to the radiator at a fairly high speed and bleed off any excess that the radiator can't flow.

My engine temps are stable and don't get excessively high so I'm not sure that there is much of a benefit for me. The DSG temps should be stable as well due to the heat exchange with the radiator, and I have not had my DSG overheat yet -- that includes a two-day HPDE at Streets of Willow last summer when temperatures were well into the triple digits by 11AM.

I've noticed that the DSG will overheat in S mode as it is shifting too much in that mode. Staying in M is the way to go on the track to stay smooth and fast.
 

Erwan1

Go Kart Champion
I was thinking of adding Mocool from Motul... I used it when I was stage 1 and it didn't upset anything, I think the temp was a tiny bit south from the 12 o clock position with regular driving.

I just didn't do it this time because unless you flush the fluid, adding it through the coolant reservoir will take weeks to circulate through the system. I might just add it since the next track day is weeks away.

I'm gonna ditch the brake shields and see what happens... anything I need to wrap up with protective tape to protect from heat? what sux is that I'll have to refinish the calipers at the end of the track season. But I guess that's normal even with Brembo's (that's why around the track they are called Brownbo's as the paint gets boiled off... lol)

My tech is gonna look into getting a radiator fabricated. In the past we tried fitting a Mishimoto radiator from the FSI engine and that didn't work out. To this date Mishimoto still doesnt have enough demand to do a TSI motor.

As far as tune... the GIAC software makes the same power at lower boost levels which actually helps the turbo run a little cooler and is less prone to damage on the track... with all the track days I have my turbo is still fine where as I've even seen Ko3's from other tunes needing replacement.


Actually thinking about this, you should never have brake fluid come out of the bleeder screws...boiling or not. Maybe they were not as tight as usual during that first session?


GIAC may be running really advanced timing which would actually cause higher heat in the motor. More advanced timing = higher cylinder pressure = higher heat in block = more work for your cooling system. The increase in cylinder pressure along with the higher heat can also cause your head bolts to stretch too which I think happened to you no?

I'm not a tuning expert by any means, but if you have money to burn it may be worth trying another tune. If the motor behave the same way and overheats then go with which ever one you feel better about.
 

PandaGTI

Go Kart Champion
Actually thinking about this, you should never have brake fluid come out of the bleeder screws...boiling or not. Maybe they were not as tight as usual during that first session?


GIAC may be running really advanced timing which would actually cause higher heat in the motor. More advanced timing = higher cylinder pressure = higher heat in block = more work for your cooling system. The increase in cylinder pressure along with the higher heat can also cause your head bolts to stretch too which I think happened to you no?

I'm not a tuning expert by any means, but if you have money to burn it may be worth trying another tune. If the motor behave the same way and overheats then go with which ever one you feel better about.

The bleeders where pretty tight, I just bled them several days earlier. I wonder if having the master cylinder filled past the max up to the brim has anything to do with it. Or the fact that I bled it with left over 3 day old fluid in my motive bleeder which attracted water into the fluid dropping the boiling point.

Reading up on leaky bleeder valves Im finding that STI's have the same issue and I had the same caliper design. Also CTS-V's have the same issue. After I bled at the track it's been fine after that.

Still the paint did darken and bubble a little which tells me things where getting too hot so I'm gonna try ditching the dust shields.

As far as the tune... You're probably right. GIAC actually has their extreme file and a regular file. AWE does recommend not tracking on the extreme file which probably makes the power by advancing the timing. I'm gonna bug GIAC again about loading both the extreme file (for use when track temps are low) and the regular file (for hot trck days) on my flashloader.

Wonder if there is a way to deduct the timing from the AFR...
 

PRND[S]

The Lame & The Ludicrous
I've noticed that the DSG will overheat in S mode as it is shifting too much in that mode. Staying in M is the way to go on the track to stay smooth and fast.
I use S almost exclusively, with occasional overrides from the paddles.
 
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