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Driver gear springs and big sway bars...

clockwise33

New York Giants Fanatic
Location
NJ
I've been running a 24mm H&R RSB with my Driver Gear springs and Eibach Prodamper shocks for about a year now and I'm not happy with the way the car just falls over on the front outside wheel. I'm wondering if I should go with the 28mm H&R front sway bar, or are DG springs to soft for that much bar?
 

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
I've been running a 24mm H&R RSB with my Driver Gear springs and Eibach Prodamper shocks for about a year now and I'm not happy with the way the car just falls over on the front outside wheel. I'm wondering if I should go with the 28mm H&R front sway bar, or are DG springs to soft for that much bar?

yes, front bar works great.
 

josein06gli

GLI OWNER
Location
San Diego, Ca
Car(s)
VW Jetta GLI
Coils and swaybars ftw.
 

Simmsled

Parking Garage > Tree
Location
Indianapolis
Car(s)
its not special.
I've been running a 24mm H&R RSB with my Driver Gear springs and Eibach Prodamper shocks for about a year now and I'm not happy with the way the car just falls over on the front outside wheel. I'm wondering if I should go with the 28mm H&R front sway bar, or are DG springs to soft for that much bar?

When was the last time you had an alignment?

Are you having grip issues?

What kind of situation makes the car 'fall' on the front outside wheel? Can you describe?
 

josein06gli

GLI OWNER
Location
San Diego, Ca
Car(s)
VW Jetta GLI
When was the last time you had an alignment?

Are you having grip issues?

What kind of situation makes the car 'fall' on the front outside wheel? Can you describe?

x2 and also how many miles on I'm assuming stock shocks with those springs ? Might be time for some new shocks.
 

Simmsled

Parking Garage > Tree
Location
Indianapolis
Car(s)
its not special.
Driver Gear springs and Eibach Prodamper shocks for about a year now...

Prodampers... not stock jose... Prodampers are usually paired with progressive rate springs (Eibach Pro-Kit). Driver Gear springs are linear.

Without spending my entire day off from work explaining the difference, you may want to look at your Prodampers to see if they are leaking.

Something does not sound right here.
 

clockwise33

New York Giants Fanatic
Location
NJ
Prodampers... not stock jose... Prodampers are usually paired with progressive rate springs (Eibach Pro-Kit). Driver Gear springs are linear.

Without spending my entire day off from work explaining the difference, you may want to look at your Prodampers to see if they are leaking.

Something does not sound right here.

The shocks are not leaking and the car is aligned. The car feels nicely settled at the limit on large radius on/off ramps. There's plenty of grip available from the Hankook V12's, to. It's the tighter turns that unsettle the front end; there is too much roll for my liking.

I understand that sway bars should not overpower the springs, so I'm wondering if anyone has an idea of the spring rate of the Driver Gears, and if a 28mm solid FSB would be too much for my setup.
 

Gunkata

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Lombard, IL
isn't a RSB more influential than a FSB on these cars?
 

GodSquadMandrake

Radioactive Rotary Rocket
Location
Minneapolis
Your not the only one. I had Bilstein PSS9 coils and the APR 27mm hollow RSB and still way too much body roll. I couldn't go any stiffer with the rear bar or I'd get too much oversteer, and any stiffer with the front swaybar and it would understeer at the limit.

The problem is this car is just too heavy. I can't find the spring rate list right now but I did the math before and essentially the springs are too soft for how heavy the car is. Even with the Billy's they would be fully compressed in a corner and the coils would all stack up and bind all the way to the top. When I took them off I could see marks in between the coils where they were rubbing.

But nobody makes a decently stiff suspension for the MKV. They're all soft. Sure they make have some pretty stiff dampeners but the spring rates are never above 500 lbs/in. And you've got about 1,000 lbs on each front wheel so it'll go down 2 inches just from the weight of the car. Then in a 1 G corner, if you can do that, you get another 1,000 lbs on that side so it goes down another 2 inches. So that's quite a bit of suspension travel and body roll for a hot hatch. I mean you help it a little bit when you put the swaybars on but they are really just hiding the problem which is inadequate suspension. Everybody wants something that is comfortable and rides smooth and they think that you can't have that with a performance suspension but it just isn't true. A properly tuned suspension will be very comfortable and doesn't have to be harsh or bouncy. It just means you have to work harder on the shocks. There's as much technical stuff in suspension tuning as there is with engine tuning most companies for VW just neglect it.
 

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GodSquadMandrake

Radioactive Rotary Rocket
Location
Minneapolis
^That's at full tilt on a downhill corner. You can see how the body is rolling so much even though the corner is cambered. And the front tire is all messed up in it's alignment with that much body roll so the rubber is barely on the road.
 

Bunnspeed

Salad Tosser
Location
MA
Car(s)
2008 GTI four door
A big rsb tends to help reduce body roll in constant radius or increasing radius turns, but tends to transfer body roll to the softest corner (outside tire on the front end) under trail braking or within a decreasing radius turn. This will be especially noticeable when you are running relatively mild springs and dampers. I'm guessing this is the situation you are experiencing.

I'm not sure what size fsb you should go with, but a larger fsb would definitely help in your situation. Since you don't have a radically large rsb, I'd probably choose a relatively conservative fsb to create a balanced setup...otherwise your roll center will be out of whack, and you might find excessive roll transfered to the rear, or unwanted understeer.
 

clockwise33

New York Giants Fanatic
Location
NJ
A big rsb tends to help reduce body roll in constant radius or increasing radius turns, but tends to transfer body roll to the softest corner (outside tire on the front end) under trail braking or within a decreasing radius turn. This will be especially noticeable when you are running relatively mild springs and dampers. I'm guessing this is the situation you are experiencing.

I'm not sure what size fsb you should go with, but a larger fsb would definitely help in your situation. Since you don't have a radically large rsb, I'd probably choose a relatively conservative fsb to create a balanced setup...otherwise your roll center will be out of whack, and you might find excessive roll transfered to the rear, or unwanted understeer.

Thanks for the response.

H&R offers two RSBs at 22mm and 24mm and two FSBs at 26mm and 28mm. I would assume that they intend that you pair the 22mm RSB and 26mm FSB, and the 24mm RSB with the 28mm FSB, right?
 

GodSquadMandrake

Radioactive Rotary Rocket
Location
Minneapolis
Agreed you need a conservative FSB. I would actually stick with the stock one or just remove it all together. Putting a larger one on will only create more understeer even if it does roll less.
I know that might not sound like it makes sense, but I've checked the lap times and it's true. Without the FSB it has more body roll but it's faster. If you don't believe me all you have to do is unbolt your swaybar endlinks and try clocking yourself around a few laps.
 

Bunnspeed

Salad Tosser
Location
MA
Car(s)
2008 GTI four door
^ I'm guessing removing the fsb altogether would be a better idea if he was running very stiff spring rates, in which case the springs would better control body roll and removing the fsb could create a little additional compliance needed to allow for additional weight transfer, and allow the front tires to absorb chop instead of skipping over bumps. This has been done successfully on a number of road race and autocross cars. On the street it might make for some spooky weight transfer and body roll on a softly sprung car like the OP's. In this instance you'd probably want to go with a mild swaybar upgrade. It might be a good idea to call H&R to see which bar would pair well with your suspension combo.
 
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