APR got WASTED on FORGE

[Little_Red_Fast]

Okay, so I am a guinea pig for Forge's new Wastegate Actuator for us that APR software. My current mods:

APR Stage 2+, APR HPFP, APR RSC TBE, BSH Stage 2 PCV, BSH Tru Seal Intake, OEM D Piston DV

As for looks, this thing is gorgeous (see pic below). I am pretty convinced though that it is an off the shelf wastegate with a new bracket and potentially different length "control arm". I may be wrong. No complaints though, because this thing is supposed to retail at $190. Anyways, take a look at the pic:

I am currently having an issue meeting requested boost, therefore I am going to leak check my charge system tomorrow at work since we have the facilities to do this already. If I can get it fixed by end of the day tomorrow, I will get some good logs and then install the new actuator. I can hardly contain myself!!!:happyanim:

Anyways, as this progresses, I will post up more data!

 

[Little_Red_Fast]

Okay, got her dynoed today for my pre dyno. 83F and 46% relative humidity. Now for my disclaimer...

Mustang Dyno!!! Its the closest to me and it will do fine for A to B comparisons (13 hp and 5tq for BSH intake...see another thread). This thing puts an ass load of load on my car. It takes roughly 15 seconds for me to do a 4th gear pull on our test track (see picture below):

On the Mustang Dyno, it takes me 18 seconds to the same pull...Why? And I graphed data at lunch (not logged) and I hit above 200g/s intake air, didnt go past 80% duty cycle, and met or exceeded boost for all areas except around 4-5k RPMS where I was slightly under. This will show up in my actual "on-road" pre-test logs.

Anyways, here are the Dyno runs (all three):

Pull 1

Pull 2

Pull 3

And here are the logs from the dyno (the boost one is kind of busy, but deal with it...if you cant read it, then you shouldnt be on this thread or even the forum):

 

[Little_Red_Fast]

Dyno was run at 76F and 68% relative humidity. Same dyno as the pre-dyno. See results and logs below

Post Dyno Overlay:

Run 1:

Run 2:

Run 3:

As for my opinions on the car, driveability, and the difference this mod makes...I wouldnt go back for anything. My car just feels better. My best friend says it best when he rode with me about a week ago, "It feels like it got the 'pep' back". Even though it is only 10hp and 10tq, it was worth it IMO. And the logs dont look bad at all. With all of the speculation, I was sure that they would look terrible...but they look fine to me.

I was going to do an average of the three runs per dyno then overlay the graphs for you guys, but then realized that its a pain in the ass to align the RPM's for each individual run to average them...so Im not going to do that. I WILL however be running the 4 APR Style logs again on a day that has similar temperature and humidity as before (I have not posted these graphs yet) so that I can show you an A to B on the same graph. Look for these in the coming days as well as the DIY below.

 

[Little_Red_Fast]

Tools Needed:

Install Time:
Roughly 3 hours if you aren’t taking pictures

Procedure:
First of all get your bare essentials…mine are shown below

Get a nice cart to hold your tools, your essentials, and your cool new Wastegate Actuator

Find a really sweet lift for your badass MKV

Remove your battery cover

Loosen the 10mm nut on the negative battery terminal

Push the wire aside

Now loosen the lug bolts with a 17mm socket and ratchet while the car is still on the ground

Remove rim and set aside (notice how I used the battery cover to hold the bolts, it works great for this and all other bolts/nuts in this project)

Now lift the car up in the air to about chest height so you can work on the inner fender

Use a T6 torx to remove all the inner fender screws

Remove the screws that are circled in red

To remove the inner fender, pull it down in the front, and up in the back. Then pull towards you

Remove the brake cooler plastic crap thingy by loosening the screws shown and pulling it downward

Now loosen the screws on the passenger side and the other side (shown in red) to remove the belly pan

Pull the belly pan towards the rear of the car and set aside

Remove the two screws holding the turbo discharge tube in place

Pull the clip out that holds the intercooler inlet hose in place

Use a screwdriver to remove the intercooler inlet hose

Pull the clip out that holds the hose to the turbo outlet

Use a screwdriver to remove the discharge pipe from the turbo outlet

Remove the splashshield (16mm socket and ratchet)

Mark all the axle bolts for future reference and re-assembly

Use a 12pt bit to loosen the axle bolts (you may have to have two big burly men hold the brake on one side and the rim/tire on the other)

Push the axle rearwards and out of your way

Remove the bracket holding on the N75 solenoid (be careful of the vacuum/boost lines)

Use a stubby 10mm wrench to loosen the wastegate arm nut, remove the clip, and then turn the turnbuckle until the arm is free from the door (numbers 2/3)

Use tin snips to remove the one time use clamp on the stock wastegate actuator

Remove the two 10mm bolts that hold the wastegate actuator in place (shown with arrows), you may need a really skinny dude to get his grubby little hands up in there

Remove the wastegate actuator by sliding it towards the passenger side, then swinging the arm 270 degrees around (first vertical, then to the bottom) and pull out the actuator

Compare it to your new wastegate actuator and be amazed by its beauty!

Wiggle the new wastegate actuator in to place in the opposite way you removed the stock one

Reinstall the two bolts holding the wastegate actuator in place (shown with arrows)

Push the vacuum line onto the new nipple and secure with a small hose clamp

Reinstall the N75 solenoid bracket

Now the fun part…hooking the wastegate actuator arm to the wastegate door (sorry no pics, you will have to figure this one out by how I explain it to you because I cant really fit my camera and hand up in there to show you).

First, spin the nut a few inches back on the arm, who cares where it is as long as it isn’t at the drivers side of the arm.

Slide the turnbuckle over to the arm and begin to thread it.

Turn the turnbuckle onto the arm until it is not easy any more (once you get a tiny bit of resistance, stop).

Now, spin the nut back down to the the turnbuckle but stop roughly 0.5mm – 1.0mm from the turnbuckle.

Tighten the turnbuckle to the nuts position and reinstall the clip.

Reinstall the turbo discharge pipe and slide the clips back into place on both sides (turbo outlet and the intercooler inlet side)

Tighten the discharge pipe to the block

Reinstall the axle in the exact manner in which you removed it

Reinstall the splash shield

Reinstall the belly pan

Reinstall the brake cooler plastic thingy (I have no idea what name to give this)

Reinstall the inner fender

Reinstall the rim/tire combo

Set the car on the ground and tighten your lug bolts

Reconnect the negative battery terminal

Reinstall the battery cover

Turn ignition to the on position and let the throttle body align for 30 seconds

Start the car, it should idle normally, if not, check all connections (IC hoses, Wastegate actuator vacuum lines, etc).

Turn on your Vag-Com and go to 01-Engine

Clear codes to reset adaption.

Drive easily for the first 20-50 miles, varying the RPM so the ECU will adapt to different throttle/boost conditions

Drive normally for the next 50 miles, checking the AFR/Boost/EGT’s on occasion.

Enjoy your new wastegate!

 

[soze]

sub'ed to see data.

 

[itisagoodname]

Eager to see! We have the same exact mods now! (other than my EVOMS)

 

[rbradleymedmd]

Haha...clever thread title...looking forward to the results man. :thumbup:

 

[Arin@APR]

I don't suggest this modification at all and we cannot support any customers who have it installed on their vehicle.

Here's why:

From the factory, Borg Warner would specify the Wastegate door in the turbo opens up by a certain distance at a certain pressure. To test this you need a dial indicator on the wastegate door and a way to apply a fixed pressure. This won’t be the same exact pressure that you see on your boost gauge if you vent all boost to the wastegate and have it wide open venting all possible boost. So what Borg Warner would report is something like “at 8 psi, the wastegate door opens fifteen thousandths of an inch”. This is the proper way to spec a wastegate for its cracking pressure. You can’t just run it until it opens because there are varying degrees of the word “open”.

Now to ensure this new wastegate is setup identically to the way Borg Warner has specified you would need to test a known working car and then compare that to measurements taken with this setup. APR specs our Stage III wastegates identically to stock FWIW.

If it's not the same, you could run into issues. Since there is no way for the calibration to physically know how wide open or closed the wastegate is, it's all guess work...

 

[Little_Red_Fast]

SWEET MAN! Stupid boost leak is killin me, I have been working on my car since I got home, tightening shit, going out and re-logging, re-checking everything, more logging...ARGH!

I think it might be the Forge boost tap for the old DV I had...the thread sealant wasnt high temperature, so it may have burnt off. I will pick some up tomorrow if the leak check doesnt find anything promising.

:mad0259:

 

[redGTI]

I don't suggest this modification at all and we cannot support any customers who have it installed on their vehicle.

wow. why am I not surprised.

 

[Little_Red_Fast]

I don't suggest this modification at all and we cannot support any customers who have it installed on their vehicle.

I dont expect any hardware related support. Now, if suddenly the software has an issue, i.e. I cannot switch programs...etc, will APR support me for that? Or will they support me for hardware issues that I purchased from them (exhaust, HPFP, future intercooler?). I dont see how this mod would effect those. I understand you not supporting me if I screw up my turbo, thats common sense.

Here's why:

From the factory, Borg Warner would specify the Wastegate door in the turbo opens up by a certain distance at a certain pressure.

Which, correct me if I am wrong, is based on spring force? The wastegate is surprisingly simple, a solenoid that makes a diaphragm/spring move to open and close the wastegate based on vacuum/boost inputs to the ECU and ECU controlling the solenoid.

If it's not the same, you could run into issues. Since there is no way for the calibration to physically know how wide open or closed the wastegate is, it's all guess work...

Well, for your peace of mind, if I blow my turbo, I will get an S3 kit from you guys :biggrin:

 

[Arin@APR]

Now, if suddenly the software has an issue, i.e. I cannot switch programs...etc, will APR support me for that? Or will they support me for hardware issues that I purchased from them (exhaust, HPFP, future intercooler?).

Absolutely. I'm just saying if you were to call up and say "My boost looks like garbage" or "I keep going into limp mode and I'm throwing under/over boost codes" there's really nothing we can do for yah.

 

[rbradleymedmd]

I agree with Arin's statements that it will be a guessing game for APR, GIAC, Uni software users. Unlike Revo users (who can electronically control settings to a limit), these software users will have to adjust manually (ie. spring inside the WG) as Angel mentioned in Mike's thread. It might not work with the first spring in this case, and it might not work at all, but it's definitely worth looking into and I truly appreciate the OP for taking the responsibility and time to test this mod out.

 

[Little_Red_Fast]

wow. why am I not surprised.

I know how you feel, BUT, I WILL NOT go for any APR/REVO/UNI/GIAC bashing in this thread, out of anyone, even APR (I like them, the company, etc, so typically I would give them a break and special treatment).

This is only a thread to show the results and how APR software adapts to the changes. And maybe a funny thread for when my turbo goes boom. Either way...

I will have the mods delete this if any of this happens and then no one will know how APR cars do with this mod. I will send the unit back to Forge and tell them that the GTI enthusiasts arent grown up enough to see the results without being haters/fanbois/whatever.

 

[Arin@APR]

Even Ravo falls into the same category. When I mean it's a guessing game, I really meant it's a guessing game for the computer controlling your vehicle.