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Discussing LSPI (Low Speed Pre Ignition)

Audi Junkie

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA
A DoE paper concluded that octane was not a factor in LSPI.

Edge 0w-40 is low calcium at 1600ish, and has the nano titanium dioxide additive, which is one chemical that "quenches" LSPI, so that's what oil we're going with for the wife's new Golf SW 6M.

Another chemical additive the quenches LSPI is moly. I have a bunch of Pennzoil 0w-40 SRT here, with moly at 250, so even though it's high calcium I'm going to use it up in my new MB Metris van 2.0T 7A.

One overlooked oil is Pennzoil 5w-30 Euro L, a reduced SAPS oil for specs like MB 229.51 and BMW LL-04, which takes it very close to VW 504 level performance, which is the top spec in reduced SAPS. MB 229.5 is the top full-SAPS spec, far ahead of the obsolete VW 502. The manual in our 2019 1.8T finally recommends 504, which is an excellent way to get low calcium, just expensive compared to the PZ Euro L at $22/5q, which is what I have in my 2012 Avant now.

The only thing Edge 0w-40 has going against it is the fact it's full-SAPS, which is not good for intake valve deposits, a reduced SAPS oil like 504 (M1 ESP) or MB 229.51 (PZ Euro L) is "tested" by Lubrizol to reduce the build-up.

So, it's a tough choice for me, 3 DI cars, 2 brand new and a bunch of high calcium oil already stashed. Since my wife has the manual trans, she'll get the Edge 0w-40, we'll have to buy it for 6 months intervals. I should also get new oil for my MB van, but will suck it up and use the PZ 0w-40 SRT I already bought. I would be very temptedto use the PZ Euro L in it, since it has MB spec....but no VW, although it's it the same class as VW 504.

Remember, MB 229.5 is by far the top spec unless you WANT reduced SAPS, then 504 gets the edge....pun intended. Also, some oil companies meerly "recommend" their oil for a given spec, or says it "meets the requirements of XXX...". Not the worst thing in the world, Liqui Moly does it and so the Valvoline and sometimes Castrol.

LM is nothing but hype, especially when you can buy real spec oil for less, like Edge 0w-40 made in Germany & legit specs, or for even less a HDEO diesel truck oil like Rotella, or the amazing Delo 5w-40 (HIGHLY recommended for tuned cars, with it's crazy HT/HS of 4.1cP, literally nothing beats it outside of maybe Redline)

fwiw, 20 and 30 weight "API" or "ISLAC", the thinner Mobil 1 have been very low CA for a while, like 1150ppm, but the 0w-40 is the same as other overbase calcium Euro 40 weight formulas from most oil companies.

It's an interesting situation. I'll try to add some images with data soon.
 
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Audi Junkie

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
A DoE paper concluded that octane was not a factor in LSPI.

Edge 0w-40 is low calcium at 1600ish, and has the nano titanium dioxide additive, which is one chemical that "quenches" LSPI, so that's what oil we're going with for the wife's new Golf SW 6M.

Another chemical additive the quenches LSPI is moly. I have a bunch of Pennzoil 0w-40 SRT here, with moly at 250, so even though it's high calcium I'm going to use it up in my new MB Metris van 2.0T 7A.

One overlooked oil is Pennzoil 5w-30 Euro L, a reduced SAPS oil for specs like MB 229.51 and BMW LL-04, which takes it very close to VW 504 level performance, which is the top spec in reduced SAPS. MB 229.5 is the top full-SAPS spec, far ahead of the obsolete VW 502. The manual in our 2019 1.8T finally recommends 504, which is an excellent way to get low calcium, just expensive compared to the PZ Euro L at $22/5q, which is what I have in my 2012 Avant now.

The only thing Edge 0w-40 has going against it is the fact it's full-SAPS, which is not good for intake valve deposits, a reduced SAPS oil like 504 (M1 ESP) or MB 229.51 (PZ Euro L) is "tested" by Lubrizol to reduce the build-up.

So, it's a tough choice for me, 3 DI cars, 2 brand new and a bunch of high calcium oil already stashed. Since my wife has the manual trans, she'll get the Edge 0w-40, we'll have to buy it for 6 months intervals. I should also get new oil for my MB van, but will suck it up and use the PZ 0w-40 SRT I already bought. I would be very temptedto use the PZ Euro L in it, since it has MB spec....but no VW, although it's it the same class as VW 504.

Remember, MB 229.5 is by far the top spec unless you WANT reduced SAPS, then 504 gets the edge....pun intended. Also, some oil companies meerly "recommend" their oil for a given spec, or says it "meets the requirements of XXX...". Not the worst thing in the world, Liqui Moly does it and so the Valvoline and sometimes Castrol.

LM is nothing but hype, especially when you can buy real spec oil for less, like Edge 0w-40 made in Germany & legit specs, or for even less a HDEO diesel truck oil like Rotella, or the amazing Delo 5w-40 (HIGHLY recommended for tuned cars, with it's crazy HT/HS of 4.1cP, literally nothing beats it outside of maybe Redline)

fwiw, 20 and 30 weight "API" or "ISLAC", the thinner Mobil 1 have been very low CA for a while, like 1150ppm, but the 0w-40 is the same as other overbase calcium Euro 40 weight formulas from most oil companies.

It's an interesting situation. I'll try to add some images with data soon.

The only LM oil I know that doesn't actually have an approval but is listed as "recommended for" is the Molygen. Which others are there? LM Leichtlauf High Tech 5W40 is a gold-standard VW502.00 oil. More expensive than 0W40 M1 at Wallword? Correct.
 

Exley

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA
Hope you guys can hear it, but this is what I've been talking about (knock during load at low RPM)

https://youtu.be/6wohRwfnjkM

This is a complete break down on what's on my car:

APR Stage 2
MK7 R Intercooler
Denso IKH24 Spark Plugs
CTS 3'' Turbo Back exhaust
CTS Turbo Inlet
034 Dog Bone Insert
K&N Drop in filter
ECS Catch Can
Michelin PSS
P3 Gauge

Planning on adding BFI stage 2 mount and larger rear sway bar. Also I'm open to suggestions for other stuff to add on my car

I had a very similar noise with APR Stage 1. Went back to stock and had a similar quieter noise that i thought might be related. Saw some knock on my OBDEleven log and chased the problem quite a bit. Took it to a shop, pulled my manifold, cleaned my injectors. I'm now thinking it might be wastegate rattle that sounds surprisingly like detonation, enough to cause some false knock on the log. No hard evidence yet as the noise has become much less frequent. If it starts up again i might put a wheel weight on the wastegate rod. I've read about them doing that at dealerships to try and pinpoint the noise.
 

Audi Junkie

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA
VW 502 is a weak spec, there is no "gold standard". A 502-specific oil, like dealer Syntec 5w-40 will be down-formulated to only meet 502, not LL-01 or 229.3/5.



https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html







Not everyone remembers when you selected your own grade of oil from a graph in the manual. Now, the EPA test protocols for mpg require the same grade used in the test be the only one recommended in the manual.



If I had a Budack engine, calling for VW 508, I would use 504 instead.
 

Audi Junkie

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA
For the sake of LSPI *and* reduced intake valve deposits, use 504 or this MB 229.51 oil, also low SAPS but lacking the 504 spec, which adds a lot to the licencing costs.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-Platinum-Euro-L-5W-30-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-qt/495194903

https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/prod...uro_L_SAE_5W-30_Fully_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.pdf

Dexos 2 Rev.1 is formulated to reduce LSPI, same as API SN Plus. Outside of expensive 504, Euro L is actually the "safest" oil to run, but lacks any VW specs.

Still going with Edge 0w-40, titanium quenches LSPI, but this oil is full saps and can contribute to deposits. Choose your poison.
 

Audi Junkie

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA
LSPI is a non-issue for VAG engines, as far as selecting special oil, or even for running less than 91 octane. GM, Hundai and Subaru are the engine brands that had any known problems.

Also, it looks like Castrol 0w-40 is now back to a high calcium formula >2000ppm. So, for the rest of my cars, I'll use the same old oils I have stashed; Pennzoil Ultra 0w-40, Mobil 1 0w-40 and my other oddball oils like Liqui Moly 0w-40 and Valvoline SynPower 0w-40, which has a bit of sodium in the formula, another element that is bad for LSPI.

For the new Sportswagen, I'm leaning back towards reduced SAPS, like VW 504 or Pennzoil Euro L 5w-30, which is a winner at $22/5q

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-Platinum-Euro-L-5W-30-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-qt/495194903

At least it can help reduce intake deposits, which is the bane of VAG DI engines. I literally do not understand people using K&N gauze filters on these engines, they are KNOWN to pass dirt....onto the hot dry valves....good luck with that
 
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RabbitTwo

Go Kart Champion
Location
Ontario, Canada
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Hey, all. Hoping you can help shine some light on a similar issue I am having.

I found some VP Octanium octane booster at a local Canadian Tire and decided to give it a try. Reason being, I am about to do a DSG tune and wanted to compare TCU maps (stock vs. TVS) with some octane booster in the car to rule out any knock or timing pull in the CVT-like feeling of the stock 7-speed software. Though slightly better with octane booster in low-RPM range, the factory DQ381 software still sucks.

Where things get interesting is after running a few tanks with octane booster and then switching back to straight premium fuel, I noticed what sounds like a knock or fuel ping in the 2-3k rpm range at higher loads.

My guess - which is purely a guess - is that a few tanks of what would be 102 octane was enough for the ECU to adapt timing / boost and now the car has what sounds like LSPI.

Mileage is 95,000 kms and the car has been well-maintained and never tuned. My only other guess is that any crap that’s come out of the injectors is causing it.

It’s strange to think it’s just coincidence because the car ran completely fine until I used the VP Octanium — and to be clear, it was not the ‘Unleaded’ version that’s advertised as safe with catalytic converters and O2 sensors. Unfortunately, I did not know about this one until after I ran the ‘off-road racing’ blend. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Hoping someone out there can help with a possible solution. Plugs are new, coil packs are new, fresh oil, and still the same issue. VW did a live scan and no knock (apparently) but it did register some misfires. Same knocking / pinging noise described throughout this thread. Super frustrating. Car has good compression straight across the board and pulls hard up top, it’s just at low-rpm under high-load that I am hearing the noise.

I am wondering whether there are fuel trims or anything in the ECU that can be reset to factory. Any help is much appreciated.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
Hey, all. Hoping you can help shine some light on a similar issue I am having.

I found some VP Octanium octane booster at a local Canadian Tire and decided to give it a try. Reason being, I am about to do a DSG tune and wanted to compare TCU maps (stock vs. TVS) with some octane booster in the car to rule out any knock or timing pull in the CVT-like feeling of the stock 7-speed software. Though slightly better with octane booster in low-RPM range, the factory DQ381 software still sucks.

Where things get interesting is after running a few tanks with octane booster and then switching back to straight premium fuel, I noticed what sounds like a knock or fuel ping in the 2-3k rpm range at higher loads.

My guess - which is purely a guess - is that a few tanks of what would be 102 octane was enough for the ECU to adapt timing / boost and now the car has what sounds like LSPI.

Mileage is 95,000 kms and the car has been well-maintained and never tuned. My only other guess is that any crap that’s come out of the injectors is causing it.

It’s strange to think it’s just coincidence because the car ran completely fine until I used the VP Octanium — and to be clear, it was not the ‘Unleaded’ version that’s advertised as safe with catalytic converters and O2 sensors. Unfortunately, I did not know about this one until after I ran the ‘off-road racing’ blend. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Hoping someone out there can help with a possible solution. Plugs are new, coil packs are new, fresh oil, and still the same issue. VW did a live scan and no knock (apparently) but it did register some misfires. Same knocking / pinging noise described throughout this thread. Super frustrating. Car has good compression straight across the board and pulls hard up top, it’s just at low-rpm under high-load that I am hearing the noise.

I am wondering whether there are fuel trims or anything in the ECU that can be reset to factory. Any help is much appreciated.
Not familiar with that octane booster but I would check the spark plugs for deposits and gap.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
Spark plugs are brand new at factory gap.
That octane booster could have fouled the plugs. I would visually check them. If your ECU is tuned you should gap tighter than the OEM 028 to 024. You didn't have the problem before the octane booster.
 

RabbitTwo

Go Kart Champion
Location
Ontario, Canada
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
That octane booster could have fouled the plugs. I would visually check them. If your ECU is tuned you should gap tighter than the OEM 028 to 024. You didn't have the problem before the octane booster.
The plugs, coil packs, and oil change have all been done since the octane booster was used. The car is completely stock - no tune.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
The plugs, coil packs, and oil change have all been done since the octane booster was used. The car is completely stock - no tune.
I don't know then. If it isn't tuned and all those things were changed after the octane booster it makes no sense.
 
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