R32 -v- GTI

GTI –v- R32

Ride & Handling Review

Vehicle One

White James Golf GTI fitted with Koni FSD dampers, Eibach ProKit Springs, H&R adjustable anti-roll bars (26mm/22mm) with front set soft & rear on hard to dial out under-steer for near neutral handling, neuspeed torque arm insert 88 duro.

Lowering: Front 20mm; Rear 8mm.

Vehicle Two

Rennenhaus.com.au 3 door R32 equipped with haldex gen II controller, complete VF engine mounts to reduce under bonnet engine movements creating further rigidity, lightweight (18lbs) neuspeed wheels (18 x 8 x ET50), Modshack cold air intake (CAI), neuspeed torque arm inserts, Thunder Bunny neuspeed suspension kit comprising: Koni – Sport dampers, neuspeed sport springs, neuspeed rear adjustable tubular sway bar (25mm) set on hard, neuspeed heavy duty rear sway bars links (note that front neuspeed not fitted due to production delays) – probably a host more items that I forgot to take note of when the owner Ian was talking to me. Koni-Sport front set on ¾ hard and rear ½ hard. Haldex controller set on ‘sport’.

Lowering: Front @ 15mm; Rear @ 15mm (note R32 stock is -10mm lower than GTI).

Location:

Royal National Park between Sydney and Wollongong. Generally known as part of the Great Ocean Road. This route provides many different surface textures and generally makes mince meat out of vehicle that is not set up well for real world conditions. A race track type set up is not likely to do well on this stretch of bitumen.

Test route 1:

Garie Beach run - mix of varied surfaces from smooth bitumen, dark & light coarse bitumen that includes pitted, undulating and patchwork surfaces. Tight 15kph & 25kph turns with many sweepers thrown in for good measure.

GTI:

The Koni FSD is softer than the Koni-Sport. Not a huge difference, but the FSD at its hardest feels like it’s about 5-10% softer in compression (bump) and rebound than the Koni Sport damper. I could notice it straight away on the speed bumps.

Both Koni FSD on GTI and Koni Sport on R32 bottomed out in a couple of sections of this test route.

The Koni FSD gave a better ride. More plush, refined and supple, while at the same time offering comparable amounts of body control as the Koni-Sport.

The FSD in the GTI did have an advantage of working against a 200kg lighter chassis than the R32, making a lot easier work of the major undulations and pot holes.

The addition of the front sway bar in the GTI as opposed to the rear only sway bar of the R32 had the GTI better balanced from apex onwards.

The GTI was more adjustable mid corner, once into the corner and on corner exit. It was easy to tighten or loosen your line mid corner with the addition of the front sway bar, although initial turn in does suffer some perceived under-steer. The front stabilizer bar on the GTI was making better use of the front tyre grip by reducing mid corner positive camber roll.

The front bar has a definite reduction in single wheel bump ride, with load transferred laterally across the front of the vehicle. The 26mm front H&R bar is not small by any means. But used in conjunction with the rear 22m bar set on hard, creates a very balanced GTI with near neutral chassis characteristics. This is hugely inspiring and confidence building.

The front wheel drive GTI had the traction control light cutting in a great deal more than the R32. This was expected. The interruption did not hamper forward progression in any abrupt way, as can be the case with the stock suspended GTI.

The GTI with front and rear anti-roll bars was not unsettled mid corner as happened to the front sway bar only R32, which on occasions had skittishness causing the front end to bounce towards the other side of the road.

Occasions like this reinforce the importance of the slow in/fast out approach to maintain a margin of safety on public roadways.

The Koni Sport cannot match the ride of the Koni FSD, but the difference is not as great as we anticipated. Both offer that trademark Koni carpet smooth ride characteristic.

It’s difficult to put a value on the FSD, but they’d offer about 90% of the performance with a notable improvement in ride on rough surfaces over the Koni Sport.

R32:

The VF dog bone, engine, transmission and lower undercarriage brace is immediately noticeable creating extra vibration into the cabin. The reduction in NVH is livable though, but this R32 has lost some of that German renowned silky feeling. I’m guessing the harder poly-urethane bushes are the culprit creating a clunking sound when front wheels are turned at low speed. A similar noise to a loose steering rack. This I could do without.

Definitely feel the firmer damping of the Koni Sport set on ¾ and 1/2 over the speed bumps. The compression rebound feels about 5-10% firmer than the Koni FSD.

The R32 minus front sway bar had good turn common with rear only sway bar set ups on VW Golf. But from apex onwards the vehicle lacked the balance and neutrality of the GTI equipped with front and rear anti-roll bars.

The haldex controller stepped in to save the day. Driving this Haldex Gen II R32 as opposed to a stock R32 is like night & day when powering on out of a corner. Under-steer is dramatically reduced.

Once at apex the vehicle tended to push wide, that is until the Haldex shuffles the drive rearwards in a hurry when powering on. The under-steer that plagues the rear only sway bar GTI mostly disappears when the rear wheels start doing the work. The driveline grip is stupendous. We did have the traction control light popping up on a few occasions. Barely detectable interference though.

Very rarely will a stock R32 shuffle drive to the rear like the Haldex controller does. Well worth the 1.7K spend (Race mode is even more dramatic).

On several occasions the front pushed wide when striking mid corners bumps at corner apex or exit. This is attributable to the lack of front neuspeed sway bar. The softer front is causing mid corner positive camber roll on the outside front wheel, while the inside front wheel becomes light, losing traction in similar fashion to a rear sway bar only GTI (rsb). R32 then transfers drive rearwards, so this positive camber roll is not as pronounced as in a GTI with rsb.

The vehicle did lack that bit of mid corner balance that the White GTI had with both sway bars fitted. It was not totally confidence inspiring when not on the gas in a major way to cause the Haldex to take control.

The ride of the Koni-Sport is surprisingly good. Better than envisaged compared to the Koni FSD. There is not a lot in it relative to the compression of the shock.

The minor undulations and pitted surfaces did not pose any problems with the Koni Sport on the R32. Trademark Koni ride was still present. Point of difference being that the some of the undulations transferred into the cabin, whereas Koni FSD carpets right over them almost like they do not exist – just a muted thud from the tyres.

The R32 did rub on our infamous 15kph 135 degree downhill corner. In addition were slight rubbing before and after this corner on several occasions. The owner Ian tried his hardest to make this R32 rub up Central Coast way – this test route alone had it rubbing up to half a dozen times in each direction – only very minor rubbing with 8” wide and 225/40 Toyo rubber.

The Koni Sport are only adjustable for rebound – twist tops at the front and rear require you to drop out shock to adjust, which is not very convenient compared to the Koni FSD that change according to driving style and roadway condition.

The Toyo Proxies felt very linear in their progression to near the limit of adhesion. They did not feel quite as grippy or progressive as the Bridgestone Potenza Adrenalin RE001 on the White GTI.

Test Route 2:

Waterfall is infamous in many ways. It’s the site of the biggest train disaster this side of Sydney with speeding trains derailing killing scores of people. Come to think of it, some punk rolled and wrote off his Nissan Skyline enroute to this location. Car was a mess sitting on the side of the roadway. Too much power, not enough handling I'm guessing.

A constant reminder that one slip on this test route and its cactus.

One thing about the Waterfall run is that the chassis tendencies are more pronounced. A bad set up gets worse; a good chassis tune shines. The roadway climbs steeply for about 4-5km and texture is course bitumen with many straight and mid corner wavy undulations to upset the vehicle. Plenty of off-camber corners to contend with. Race car stiff cars hate it.

GTI:

Time and time again I’m amazed at how good the turn in is in the White GTI. Better than any other GTI I’ve experienced, including all with coilovers. It’s a combination of finding the correct suspension tune relative to grip levels of the tyres, with a bit of rake thrown in for good measure. This is still the best balanced Golf I've driven.

Most race car driver’s work around tyre grip levels, so do I when considering the best choice of suspension tune for the roadway grip and tyre adhesion levels. No use putting in super stiff suspension and cheap tyres; or super grippy tires with worn out too soft suspension. Picking the best compromise is a fine art indeed.

Carrying insane amounts of corner entry speed into corners and the chassis just remains near neutral to get you around the corner. A stock GTI would be making a B-line for the other side of the road at much less speed.

The heavier 18 x 7.5 x ET51 x 225/40 huff wheels only had one issue with rubbing; otherwise all fine. That 0.5” smaller wheel makes all the difference. The extra un-sprung weight does add suppleness and refinement to ride, but takes a bit away from braking, accelerating and mid corner speed – wheel spin reduced and traction aided with lower 40 series profile. The Bridgestone RE001 tend to work a bit better than the Toyo Proxies. Ian may disagree.

The GTI was able to have its intended line adjusted while on the power on the uphill run through most corners – front and rear sway bars make that much difference.

Body roll is a little more notable in the GTI with slightly higher ride height and less firm damping of the FSD – only marginally though.

Compared to the R32, the front end of the GTI feels so tight. Like a watertight drum. This limited initial turn, but once approaching apex, hugely inspired confidence. This GTI just goes where you point it, regardless of type of entry into the corner.

The less weight of the GTI is a blessing and a curse: Less weight makes for easier direction changes and a faster car; it also makes the GTI less settled over undulations and prone to be bucked around by pot holes and major undulations. The GTI entered corners faster than the R32, but the undulations along this route had the GTI being bucked around a bit, taking some confidence away on the downhill runs.

The ride over single wheel bumps is notably more jarring than the R32. This was due to having both front & rear sways bars, as opposed to the R32 sporting a stock front anti-roll bar, preserving the ride to a greater degree.

R32:

The race seats in the R32 are absolutely great. They seat the driver lowering thereby lowering the centre of gravity further and cosset you in when things become demanding. The seat is difficult to reach around to and no side airbags are minuses.

Driving uphill is much easier for an R32 with rsb only and Haldex Gen II controller. Power is punted to the rear in sport mode in no time at all, allowing the driver to tighten the intended line on corner exit. If this was a GTI with rsb, you’d be back off the gas well and truly on corner exit.

It amazing how much drive the R32 has out of corners with the haldex gen II and the speeds it quickly achieves in such a short distance. Breathtaking. This is something that the GTI just cannot match with the traction control cutting in much more often, albeit not aggressively. On the hand, the turbo whoosh & punch is addictive.

The neuspeed sport springs offer similar noise levels to the ‘sleeved’ Eibach ProKit springs in the White VW Golf GTI. So yes, neuspeed springs are generally quieter than Eibach; but Eibach tend to be about 10lbs firmer than neuspeed, generally speaking. Both are made to work with Koni FSD or Koni Sport.

Waterfall run showed up some very surprising results with the R32.

The Koni-Sport dampers had a tough time controlling the major undulations on the downhill run.

The extra 200kg of weight in the R32 was really felt in this run to the point that the White GTI with front and rear sway bars and the softer Koni FSD felt more controlled and flat when striking wavy conditions in the roadway.

I’d put most of it down to extra weight of the R32 and some to the slightly softer tune of the neuspeed spring relative to the Eibach Prokit spring in the GTI.

The extra weight of the R32 does help create a sure footed solid feel to the R32. I’m not so sure that it’s a faster car than a GTI in all environments. Maybe on the open race track like Eastern Creek or Philip Island.

The Koni-Sport on the R32 did give a similar ride to the GTI with Koni FSD. The Koni-Sport being firmer – but the GTI sporting both front and rear anti-roll bars helped keep this vehicle more rigid when the going got tough. It was very surprising to see how good the ride was in the R32 with the Koni-Sport, especially since they were set on ¾ hard at front and ½ hard at rear.

Another surprise was that the front lightweight neuspeed wheels were rubbing in the straight ahead position on the R32 (18 x 8 x ET50 x 225/40), let alone around corners.

Again, the owner Ian could not get any front fender rubbing prior to this run; I’ve lost count how many (very) minor scrubs I’ve heard on this ‘R’ – it must be approaching twenty times but the time this route was dispensed with.

And there are guys our there wanting to purchase 19 x 8.5 x ET42-50 x 235 for their Golf? Maybe not with aftermarket suspension and lowering.

On the downhill run, the R32 failed to inspire confidence to push on as in the GTI. The balance through the entire corner was not present. The haldex had a limited function on the downhill run, as powering out is not as aggressive as it is when hammering up this route.

I found that on a couple of occasions I was braking mid corner to wash off speed on downhill runs as I had did not have Haldex Controller to save the day. In retrospect this may not have been required, but the confidence was not present with the slightly mismatched front and rear sway bars – everything else on the R32 seemed to work in harmony with each other.

Overall the difference between Koni-FSD and Koni-Sport was not as notable as I had envisaged.

Point to note is that we are not comparing apples with apples - (1) We too diferent vehicles with differing drive & differing weights GTI -v- R32; (2) No front sway bar on the R32.

Food for thought:

So is the Thunder Bunny Kit from Ian @ rennenhaus.com.au comprising Koni-Sport dampers, neuspeed springs, neuspeed anti-roll bars, HD sway bar links worth the 2k spend? Yes.

Do yourself a favour and make sure you have both front and rear bars for balanced handling; and if the budget allows, the Haldex Gen II controller is a worthy addition.

On the other hand, if you live in a place like Sydney with terrible inner city roadways and are looking to preserve your tooth fillings and kidney when in town, the FSD will give you about 90% of what the Koni-Sport gives in terms of handling; only with a notable improvement in ride. Not a huge difference by any margin between the two Koni dampers.

Well not when comparing GTI -v- R32.

Koni-Sport on GTI I'd imagine would be a good deal firmer.

Some pics to follow.

Cheers
WJ

Pics

Check out the ride height difference.
A lot more rake in the White GTI.

Cheers
WJ

WJ,

Excellent write-up (as always!). The suspension comparison you've made has reinforced my thoughts towards the Koni FSD + Eibach ProKit setup. I think I'll be going that way myself very soon!
Did you notice much difference in power between the two cars? I'm thinking Ian's R32 would have quite a bit more power than your GTI with the mods it has - did this make much difference in the 'real world' testing? I would imagine it would power out of corners a bit harder than a GTI.

did Ian still have an Esky with 60 cans of drink and water and ice in the boot of the car?

as soon as Neuspeed get off their Arses in Yanksville and spit out a FSB for the R, the better.

that will match nicely to a haldex and what im saving for... SACHS Coilovers.

After riding and driving a rather HIGH SPIRITED GTI from QLD, I am going that way. They are pure silk. This may take a little time, but be well worth I feel.

The Waterfall road is a Total Pharking Joke.

This road IMO hardly is a representation of real world driving. It is a forgotten piece of shit. The only time my car has touched a surface like that...is on that road!

Maybe we should look to do some trackday based comparison in the future instead of running to the Goat's driveway everytime for a comparison.

Maybe Waterfall resembles parts of the Südschleife, but definately not the Nordschleife. And Bilstein would not go to Waterfall to test.

Wipperman said:

did Ian still have an Esky with 60 cans of drink and water and ice in the boot of the car?

Click to expand...

nope! that was left sitting in a garage in Sydney. No way I wanted that much added weight in the car, would be like having you as a passanger

:wink:

now, I'm not going to get into detail like james has (cause well, just not awake enough to write that much)

agree: with W-man, the road really is shocking. I've been trying to get rub out of the R up this way for weeks and haven't been able to. Also tried to induce some scrub whilst leaving Sydney last evening, and also couldn't. I believe it's limited to shocking roads haha

agree: front bar is required on the R. After hitting the corner apex, I think it would make a massive difference and improvement.

agree: FSD are more complient on the bumpy bumpy (yes two bumpy's) stuff. The Yellows tend to jolt the car around more. BUT, I didn't put the Yellows on for the comfort of bumpy bumpy stuff, I wanted performance on flatish surface, in which I think they work beautifully.

agree: engine mounts do add some vibration, but it minimal in comparison to how the car feels now when you chuck it into a corner; it doesn't feel as though the engine shifts around at all. The chasses and engine are one.

agree: tiny bit of groan at low speed. Have spoken to VW about this, and techs reckon it's similar to the noises the stock R's made when they were having issues; solution? heaps of grease, so will get that sorted when i'm in next.

not so agree: spring rate between eibach and neuspeed... i'll hunt down the spring rates for the Neuspeeds, see if you can find the Eibachs? Having spoken to Neuspeed, I believe their spring rates are some of the stiffest on the market... now, I could be wrong but wouldn't mind comparing numbers

pictures to follow later on

nice write up WJ!

Great bit of info, cheers!
Anyone know where I could get one of those Haldex controller things fitted in Sydney? Does the controller just increase the speed of the "shuffle" or does it have the capability of permanently forcing drive to the rear?
I took an S3 out for a test drive yesterday and the grip is far superior to the golf. I was told that the S3 has a Haldex system that always transfers power to the rear? Would love to get the golf to handle as well as the Audi.
Thanks in advance.

WhiteJames said:

Once at apex the vehicle tended to push wide, that is until the Haldex shuffles the drive rearwards in a hurry when powering on. The under-steer that plagues the rear only sway bar GTI mostly disappears when the rear wheels start doing the work. The driveline grip is stupendous. We did have the traction control light popping up on a few occasions. Barely detectable interference though.

Click to expand...

If you have a look at the data on the Haldex, the one problem with leaving the ESP system on is that when it activates, the Haldex entirely DEACTIVATES... just like the stock control. To really get the most from the Haldex upgrade when pushing hard, you really need to turn ESP off and leave it off. The instant that light flickers on the dash, all Haldex Gen II upgrade is gone.

I'm glad to hear such strong supporting comments for it as an upgrade, though. It really does make a massive improvement to the way the R handles under power delivery and will make you adjust your driving style to work with it more once you've got the feel for it.

Ian gave me a drive of his car at Silverwater in the afternoon. I know the industrial estate around there reasonably well as i deal with a couple of companies based over there. While there's not as much off camber and undulating road as RNP, there's plenty of bumps, dips and sharp transitions over differing road surfaces.

Personally, i found the ride in Ian's R too harsh for my needs. I think this had a lot to do with the damping setting and the ride height. While the chassis characteristics are changed by the dogbone and engine mount upgrades, this is easily distinguished from the changes due to suspension.

The biggest and most noticable plus with the Nuespeed/Koni Sport setup was braking. The car is absolutely neutral and slows down significantly quicker than a stock R. Whne you know the R, and generally know how late you can brake and controllably turn in. Take about 30% off the stock car... you really can brake that much deeper or use the gain to brake at the same point with less force ( = less chance of brake fade).

The point on the front sway bar is very very important. Ian's car does have a bit of a skitish tendency when you punt it in really hard on exit. The Haldex - as with the stock R - makes a massive difference if you know to pump the gas as soon as you feel it loosen. As WJ's pointed out, on a down hill run you can pretty much toss the Haldex advantage out the window and this is where the sways will really work for you. So, where the heck are the front ones, NeuSpeed? Damn yanks and there love of drift action :lol:

As WJ's also said, the difference in damper performance is also noticable from low speed. The ride and be quite harsh and bump over corrogated surfaces. Sharp transitions make you think the world is coming to an end - and once again i appologise, Ian, i didn't know that ridge was there...

For Ian's wants, this car is perfect. Keep in mind Ian puts this car in the VAG motorsport series for a bit of fun. IMO, this suspension setup is going to serve him very very well on all of the NSW tracks. It'll give him a lot more confidence when he gets a front sway. I think this is a case of Ian getting a setup that suits his main desire best. I feel he's going to tweak it a bit more once he gets into the tracks, but as a base point it's going to shave some time for him and provide a huge confidence boost when cornering.

For road use, i'd be inclined to stick with a 10mm maximum drop at the front of the R and the same at the rear. I'd also be inclined to stick with FSD's as per WJ's car for overall road performance versus every day ability to live with them. I don't think the springs in Ians car are too stiff or too soft, but i did feel it was being overdamped. This will serve well on a race track, but removes a good chunk of ride comfort on the road as the springs don't get the chance to work properly. Again, with the sport kit, this is adjustable and Ian does have the shocks set quite hard.

Given how hard the suspension is, i really found it to be quiet. It's not as quiet as stock nor as WJ's setup, but it's a fair chunk harder and lower as well. IMO, the Neuspeed with FSD's, 10mm drop and front + rear sways on soft will be a very good daily drive/weekend punt package.

olive said:

Great bit of info, cheers!
Anyone know where I could get one of those Haldex controller things fitted in Sydney? Does the controller just increase the speed of the "shuffle" or does it have the capability of permanently forcing drive to the rear?
I took an S3 out for a test drive yesterday and the grip is far superior to the golf. I was told that the S3 has a Haldex system that always transfers power to the rear? Would love to get the golf to handle as well as the Audi.
Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

The S3 uses the SAME haldex controller as the R32. You also buy the SAME Haldex GenII to achieve improved performance just like the R32. The bigger difference with the Audi is a harsher ride through stiffer suspension. If you were to take the Audi through RNP against an R32 -stock for stock - i doubt the Audi would get in front of the R. At some points, i doubt it would keep up with the R. The suspesnion loses to much compliance in the Audi and the chassis seems to work against the car so instead of riding through bumps it forcing the S3 over them... which = loss of traction.

That said, the Haldex upgrade is very striaght forward. I did mine in my driveway with a few basic tools... using a large trolley jack. On a hoist, it should be a 15 minute job at most. Took me about 25 minutes to ensure i lost no oil from the haldex.

The GenII Haldex has 3 modes of operation: Normal, Sport and Race. You need the switch (about $400 extra) to get race mode. The switch also needs to be installed = about 1 hour or so for an experienced person. The switch in race mode puts the Haldex shuffling torque rear any time power is applied up to 50/50, i think it is. For road use, Sport mode is more than enough and doesn't require the switch. This reduces the time to shuffle torque rear by a factor of 100 or so. My car is set just to sport (no switch) and it removes all of the understeer on corner exit with power down. I've driven Chaddys car with the switch on, and it's mad. Be warned that it does induce a bit of shake in the chassis/drive line as the car is being made to work hard. It takes a bit of getting use to and really is best left to the track. Chaddy made the comment about it when i last saw him and was using it in sport mode normally. Race is good... but i doubt you could live with it every day of the week - hence the switch :thumbsup:

Nice write up WJ.

Us chipped but stock boys have no hope on Ian now...
Except maybe downhill on a choppy run.
Bugger...

Now we need an MPS vs GTI test...