Oil Surge Problems From High G Turns On R Compounds?

On the Mark VI forum, there have been concerns over whether the TSI engine (which I believe replaced the FSI's sometime in 2008) is prone to oil surge / oil blow by on high speed left hand turns:
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34394
http://golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17181&highlight=oil+smoke+track

The theory is the risk of oil surge (or oil blow by through the PVC, into the intake stream, through the turbo and which gets bured up in the motor) may cause complete engine failure and that running r compound tires only increases this risk. When this reportedly happens, it manifests in smoke blowing out everywhere--though it does not necessarily result in complete engine failure. Does anyone on the Mark V forum have any commments or experience with this? Is ultimate engine failure from high g turns (like when running r compounds) a legitimate concern with our cars?

I have a Mark VI and currently run 225/45/17 Nitto NT-01s with hotchkis front and rear sways set to medium while competing in NASA TTE. Otherwise, my suspension is stock. Thus far, after two full weekends at Gingerman and Autobahn, I have not noticed any smoke coming from the exhaust or any other sign of this oil surge / oil blow by. To run NASA TTD, I would need to step up my suspension and tires. However, before investing in coilovers, sport spindles, camber plates and hoosier A6's, I would like to know whether there is a reasonable risk that I could blow my engine on high speed turns with this set up? I have heard other types of cars have had this problem but I don't know if ours do.

For those who run r compounds (or near r compounds) and have a TSI engine, please post your experiences. Please also describe the specific suspension and tires you have used. For anyone else who has thoughts on this subject, please feel free to share them.

Thank you in advance...

This story sounds rather crocked - not that it can't happen. Porsche Boxsters and Caymans do have an issue with hard corners and blowing clouds of smoke. But this is just an inconvenience to the person following who has to smell it, a little extra oil blowing in will not blow the motor.

But to think that there is some mysterious line where an R comp will excite this, and ultra high performance tires will not is probably a little silly.

I've run my FSI super hard for last 4 years turning over .9G's with non R comps and R comps often and regularly with no issues - unless VW somehow totally pooched the PCV system on the TSI motor (which I highly doubt) you should be fine.

Who and how did this rumor get started up?

Wasn't there something when Apr switched to tsi motors and were blowing smoke during hard cornering? But I dont remember hearing someone blow their motor because of it.

bostonaudi said:

This story sounds rather crocked - not that it can't happen. Porsche Boxsters and Caymans do have an issue with hard corners and blowing clouds of smoke. But this is just an inconvenience to the person following who has to smell it, a little extra oil blowing in will not blow the motor.

But to think that there is some mysterious line where an R comp will excite this, and ultra high performance tires will not is probably a little silly.

I've run my FSI super hard for last 4 years turning over .9G's with non R comps and R comps often and regularly with no issues - unless VW somehow totally pooched the PCV system on the TSI motor (which I highly doubt) you should be fine.

Who and how did this rumor get started up?

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Yep. A story or 2 isn't worth it's salt. Find dozens on teams with 10's of thousands of dollars invested in this car to compete and they are having this problem.....then be concerned.

I know lots of teams running a honda k20 motor, running 225 hoosiers, -3 neg camber, jrz or moton level susp that don't run a baffled oil pan. They data log and run oil analysis.

If you read the magazine articles for this engine crowd ( remember the aftermarket crowd pays their bills). They would all run out and buy baffled oil pans.

Want a good source for info, read GRASSROOTS.

I'll give you my first-hand experience.

During track sessions on Star Specs I have experienced catch cans filled up in 20-minute driving sessions, low oil pressure warnings and a slipped timing chain because the hydraulic chain tensioner starved of oil.

I have seen this happen on one of the APR mkVI not long after they came out. I was at a track day at Wakefield Park here in Australia and on one particular sharp left hand corner (the only sharp left on the track) they would get a large cloud of smoke billowing out the exhaust. I was speaking to the APR guys later in the day and they explained it exactly as you described: hard left corners = blow by. From memory I think they had already worked out a fix.

PRND[S] said:

I'll give you my first-hand experience.

During track sessions on Star Specs I have experienced catch cans filled up in 20-minute driving sessions, low oil pressure warnings and a slipped timing chain because the hydraulic chain tensioner starved of oil.

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Take the cc out then.

A momentary cloud of oil isn't the end of the world. It just means whoever is on your ass at the track gets to breath some momentary smoke. Every time I follow a cayman or Boxster being pushed hard into quick left right transitions I generally see a momentary cloud. Their engines don't blow. You'd have to dump enough oil in to cause it to seize.

I can only say good things about the Mann&Hummel Provent 200. That will likely help but beyond that you're going to need a different oil pan and pick-up tube for the next step.

bostonaudi said:

This story sounds rather crocked - not that it can't happen. Porsche Boxsters and Caymans do have an issue with hard corners and blowing clouds of smoke. But this is just an inconvenience to the person following who has to smell it, a little extra oil blowing in will not blow the motor.

But to think that there is some mysterious line where an R comp will excite this, and ultra high performance tires will not is probably a little silly.

I've run my FSI super hard for last 4 years turning over .9G's with non R comps and R comps often and regularly with no issues - unless VW somehow totally pooched the PCV system on the TSI motor (which I highly doubt) you should be fine.

Who and how did this rumor get started up?

Click to expand...

I hope you are right that oil blow by is, at most, an inconvenience on high g turns. You have tracked your car far more than perhaps any member on these forums and possess a wealth of knowledge on tracking these cars that is far greater than mine. However, I think this issue does deserve some attention and, perhaps, some further investigation.

To answer your question as to how this story started, I first learned about it after reading the threads referenced in my post. APR staff has validated this concern to at least several people, including me, and gone so far as to offered a solution (with the caveat it is not necessarily suitable for a DD's). I dont' recall the specifics but I think it involves some sort of oil canister inside the car that is connected to some tubing that connects somewhere else. If I recall, they started using this own their TSI race cars to prevent ultimate engine failure, as another member on this forum recalls as well, when they had problems with smoking billowing out. Thus, the bases for oil blow by leading to possible engine failure in high speed left hand turns has not only been validated by APR, they have a product which purportedly directly addresses this risk.

Regarding r compound tires, I agree there is no mysterious line where r compounds triggers this response but non-r compounds don't. However, the issue is not r compounds, per se, but g force. In terms of g force, there may be a tipping point where oil blow by can and does occur. All things being equal (including driver, set up and conditions), there will be considerably more g force generated with r compounds than non-r compounds particularly when comparing any non-r compound (including Star Specs) tire to a very sticky r compound like Hooseir R6's. All that said, I don't pretend to have the answer to this topic which is why I posted the question.

I truly hope this is much to do about nothing. As others have commented, the fact no one seems to have reported engine failure on these forums from high g left hand turns suggests this may not be a valid concern. However, when members on the Mark VI forum have reported this issue, two members on this forum recall APR having this issue, and APR validates its to other forum members and offers a solution to reduce the risk of engine failure, I am certainly not going to ignore it. For all these reasons, I am looking for as many people as possible who have tracked their cars using TSI engines and who have a set up that generates lots of g force. I only raise the topic of r compounds because r compounds, all things being equal, will allows for more g force than on r compounds. If many people repond and none report engine failure from this, that is certainly helpful evidence that this concern is not valid.

A guy I AutoX with who has a MK6 was getting blue smoke coming out the exhaust at AutoX this spring. Turned out the techs at the dealership put too much oil in the damn thing the last time he had it serviced. He hasn't had a problem since.

jmk007 said:

The theory is the risk of oil surge (or oil blow by through the PVC, into the intake stream,

Click to expand...

It would be easy to take it out of the realm of theory and into the tangible world of data by adding a simple oil pressure gage or warning light.

bostonaudi said:

Take the cc out then.

A momentary cloud of oil isn't the end of the world. It just means whoever is on your ass at the track gets to breath some momentary smoke. Every time I follow a cayman or Boxster being pushed hard into quick left right transitions I generally see a momentary cloud. Their engines don't blow. You'd have to dump enough oil in to cause it to seize.

Click to expand...

I'm less concerned about the CC filling up than I am about the oil not being in the system anymore. The lack of oil pressure for the tensioner resulted in a slipped timing chain and valve damage.

INA Engineering is testing a dry sump system right now but I really don't want to lose my A/C system, the GTI is also my daily driver and I can't afford to get to the office smelly and drenched in sweat.

The CCTA engine got that new wonky wombat oil pan. Check out the diagram:
http://www.jimellisaudiparts.com/images/parts/Audi/fullsize/636103020.jpg

FSI (BPY)


TSI (CCTA/CBFA)


The new oil pan looks smaller but the oil capacity is only .1L less than the old one. I don't think it's going to be possible to change back to the old oil pan because of the new two piece design. Since it's steel you have some slack though. You could weld in some additional baffles or chop an end off and extend it.

Dynjo said:

It would be easy to take it out of the realm of theory and into the tangible world of data by adding a simple oil pressure gage or warning light.

Click to expand...

I like that idea. First, assuming a quality oil pressure gage is installed, how likely is it the gage would register as low in time to back off and avoid either: a) oil blow by; and b) any real engine damage if it triggers sometime after oil blow by begins? I recall someone suggesting we have an oil pressure warning light but I don't know how reliable they are. Second, what is the rough cost of such a gage, including install, and are there any relatively clean, reversable places to install a gage or two in our cars?

Thanks again for the idea.

GodSquadMandrake said:

The CCTA engine got that new wonky wombat oil pan. Check out the diagram:
http://www.jimellisaudiparts.com/images/parts/Audi/fullsize/636103020.jpg

FSI (BPY)

TSI (CCTA/CBFA)

The new oil pan looks smaller but the oil capacity is only .1L less than the old one. I don't think it's going to be possible to change back to the old oil pan because of the new two piece design. Since it's steel you have some slack though. You could weld in some additional baffles or chop an end off and extend it.

Click to expand...

As usual, your knowledge and research on these things is scary. However, for people like myself who are mechanical idiots, what are we looking at (beyond it being labeled an oil pan) and how does that impact oil blow by? Thanks...