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Wheel alignment settings - Lowered Golf GTI

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Wheel alignment:
The importance of your wheel alignment cannot be overstated. The best tyres or most trick suspension cannot compensate for an asymmetrical or poor wheel alignment.

Ideally its good to have your tyres rotated every 5,000km and a full wheel alignment every 10,000km on average.

Poor wheel alignment:
For the past 2,000km or so, I have not been enamoured with my ‘out of whack wheel alignment’. I had been holding off until arrival of my new tyres from Japan to suit newly acquired Audi RS6 replica wheels. Bridgestone Potenza RE001 Adrenalin (225/40/18-92W) to wrap around (18/8/ET45) RS6 wheels.

Handling issues with unsatisfactory wheel alignment (toe):
Driving a hot hatch is a bit like a hot woman. You have to be delicate and sensitive in caressing her into a corner or series of turns. Any abrupt movements and she is likely to bite or sting you; sometimes with serious, even fatal repercussions. There is always a need to be smooth when getting the most out of your baby. Avoid being abrupt at all times if possible.

Seriously; I found that my wheel alignment, for whatever reason, had gone off. Left hand turns were dynamite. Hard and late on the brakes into a very tight left hander had my Golf feeling like a mongoose chasing a squirrel. Turn sharp left and squeeze the throttle and barely a chirp of the inside unloaded front left wheel and she would fire out of the tight twisty with real gusto. Like a slingshot.

Right hand corners were an entirely different proposition. Didn’t matter how much sensitivity, gentleness or smoothness applied in turning right, Golf would just want to under steer its way out, sometimes heading towards the greener part of the terra firma like the shoulder of the roadway. The feeling was sort of like side-stepping in a league game. The front end would want to pick up and step left as vehicle was going around right turn bends. A highly annoying trait during a Sunday drive, that’s for sure.

My experience tells me that the right front wheel was toed too far positive; not only relative to the front left wheel, but on it’s on accord. As the vehicle was turning right, the right wheel was still turned slightly towards the left, making it difficult for her to negotiate the turn. The two front wheels are fighting against each other in attempt to make a right hand turn. No amount of caressing was going to get this baby to hook up on right-handers.

Negative camber, lower ride height and uneven wear on tyres:

I mentioned previously that my Golf GTI equipped with Eibach ProKit lowering springs had induced negative camber to the point of causing uneven tyre wear. This is only partly true.

Checking the front tyres after 10,000km of driving, the inside edges have worn at a faster rate than the outside edges as previously stated. The right side front had worn out more than the left front.

Usually the left front wears faster due to the negative camber of public roadways. Roads have induced negative camber to allow water to channel away from the crown or centre of the roadway. This is especially apparent on big 4wd’s.

Having the right tyre wear at a slightly faster rate also indicates that the wheel alignment has been thrown out of whack. More to the point, the toe of the front wheels. The rear end felt fine.

New tyres, new wheels and most importantly a wheel alignment:

My suspicious of having too much positive toe on the front right wheel was correct. The wheel alignment from Jobsons Bridgestone – Taren Point Road, Caring bah (Sydney) confirmed this.

The left front was toed positively +0.6mm and right front a whopping +1.7mm positive.

This explains to a degree, some of the uneven tyre wear on the front of my baby. The front wheels were brought back to negative -0.2mm right and left sides.

The negative camber for those of you taking the Eibach Prokit, Nuespeed Sports/ProCup Kit or H&R OEM Sports springs route – negative camber results from -20mm drop on front of GTI.

My GTI had induced -1.0 degree of negative camber with the Eibach ProKit. Not a lot considering the more aggressive street cars can have up to -2.5 to -3.5 degree of negative camber. Negative -1.0 degree is not enough to warrant a camber kit (H&R or Eibach) so I’m told by professionals in the game.

The caster on the Golf GTI is about +7.5 degrees positive.

A Whiteline anti-lift/caster kit apparently pushes forward the caster by another +1.5 degrees positive.

The rear axle wheel alignment was fine.

Only a minute adjustment required. Not a lot of change in 10,000km.

Negative camber on the rear is -1.3 degree negative whereby the top of the wheel taper towards each other at the top. Remember mine has lowering springs front & rear.

The toe on the rear is only slightly positive with about +0.5mm each side as a rough guide.

I have included a copy of my wheel alignment schedule for your information as others have been asking.

Bridgestone – Jobsons Tyre Centre, Taren Point Road, Caringbah (near Cronulla):
Sales Manager Kevin Ginesi provided excellent customer service. He was straight up on price for RE001 Potenza Adrenalin - $330 for 18” and $280-$290 for 17”. Others quoting around $350-$375 per corner. (RE050 were $420 each for 18”). I bargained affable Kevin down to include a wheel alignment for that price and later on, Kevin had delivered my old wheels & tyres directly to my home later that day. That service for you. My GTI was aligned twice that morning. They took it off the alignment machine and showed me the result. I wasn’t happy with the toe and up she went again for the second time that morning.

Manager Kevin Ginesi is also honest in his dealings. He will tell you that the RE001 are not as good as the Michelin PS2 or Continental CS3 – but RE001 are 2/3rd’s the price of the Michelin & Contis. This is the first time I have used this establishment and would highly recommend them. They offered free rotation and balance every 8,000km for the life of my RE001 tyres, saving me about $25-$30 each visit. Jobsons will supply other makes of tyres, including Goodyear and Michelin and do trade in semi-slicks for the track enthusiast. The boss and his mates run racing Commodores & Monaros, so they may known a thing or two about race car set-ups if that’s your cup of tea.

Bridgestone Potenza RE001 Adrenalin:

The RE001 are the replacement tyres for the Bridgestone Potenza SO3 and G3. If you’re interested in the SO3 or G3, buy now as they are apparently being phased out after stock has depleted.

After this it’s the RE001 or RE050. The RE050 comes as OEM as it offers a better ride and more noise suppression. RE001 are likely to be louder and hard riding.

The outgoing SO3 are a rubber tyre that offer more grip, especially in the wet, but do not have a long wear rate. They also tend to tramline on low tread according to Jobsons Manager Kevin Ginesi.

Ginesi reckons that the RE001 offer better heat dispersion due to a more even contact patch of the asymmetrical design. Remember that the highly regarded Goodyear F1 is going to an asymmetrical tread pattern.

The word ‘Potenza’ basically means that the tyre is made in Japan – not a bad thing in my opinion.

My first impressions of the RE001:
Having only done 80km on the new RE001 Bridgestone Potenza Adrenalin with 36psi as recommended by Bridgetone – Taren Point, I would say that they seem quieter on smooth bitumen than Conti CS2; but am undecided about noise levels on coarse bitumen. The improved wheel alignment is obviously a big advantage. The ride with 36psi on 18” with 40 series rubber is not notably harsher than the OEM wheels/tyres with 37psi. After initial run phase, I intend to run the 18” RE001 at 38-40psi in dry and 36-38psi in wet.

The Golf is not a heavy car by any means and Manager Kevin Ginesi recommends 36psi (40psi for 1800kg Commodore).

At 10/10ths with an offset of ET45 on new 18” wheels as opposed to offset of ET51 of OEM 17” wheels, I do notice additional stability due to the slightly wider track of 9mm (6mm of ET45 + extra ½ inch each of 8” wider rim). As a guide, a Ferrari is wider than a Falcon and shorter than a Ford Laser – that extra wide track improves handling of a vehicle.

I’m hoping that the RE001 Bridgestone Potenza will offer me 80-90% of the performance of the Michelin PS2 or Conti CS3 for 2/3rd’s the price. Maybe its wishful thinking! Only time will tell.

For those looking to add 18” wheels + Eibach ProKit or Nuespeed ProCup Kit or H&R OEM Sport springs – I have included a couple of images of my GTI to give those that have enquired a depiction of what your GTI may look like.
The 18” take some of the rake out of the vehicle and fill up the rear wheel arches nicely in my opinion. Car looks much improved and I am very happy with the end result.

PS: A lot of you have been wondering why I do not actively partake in GTI drive days or skid pan days – My employer has some of these facilities that at times are open for use by me free of charge. The skid pan at work is a real bitch as they have a section that is both wet and has grease/oil put down purposely. A real bitch to clean off the vehicle after a few runs. Skid pan much for fun with a rear wheel drive + LSD. Trust me.

PS: Please see attachments.

Cheers
WJ
 
Last edited:

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Settings

Wheel alignment settings:

Jobsons Discount Tyre & Mechanical
Taren Point Road
TAREN POINT NSW

Work Notes:
Date:

18”
Time:
Registration:
Mileage: km


FRONT AXLE
Total Toe
Individual Toe
Max Dif.
Camber
Max Dif.
Caster
Max Dif.
KPI (S.A.l.)
Max Dif.
Included Angle
Toe Out on Turns
Max mt. Steering Angle
Max Ext. Steering Angle
Set Back
Tyre
Pressure measured
Tread depth (mm)


REAR AXLE
Total Toe
Individual Toe
Max Dif.
Camber
Max Dif.
Set Back
Thrust Angle
Track Difference
Tyre
Pressure measured
Tread depth (mm)


Previous Values
LH RH +2.2mm
+0.6mm +1.7mm
-00°57’ -01 °02’
+07°37 +07°55’
+15°31 +15°41’
+14°34’ +14°38’
00010

LH RH
+1.0mm
+0.3mm +0.6mm
-01°23’ -01°19’
00000•
000011
-00°20


Final Values
LH RH
-0.3mm
-0.2mm -0.2mm
-00°58 -00°59’
+07°40 +07°55’
+15°31’ +15°41’
+14°32’ +14°42’
00011
LH RH

LH RH +1.0mm
+0.4mm +0.6mm
-01°23 -01°17’
00001I
00001I
-00°20
LH RH
Publicity Messg I
Publicity Messg 2
 

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Sorry - having a bit of difficulty taking scanned copy from laptop onto forum in its orginal format.
WJ
 

Jaymz

Ready to race!
Location
Brisvegas
Thanks for posting this up James, lots of good info.
I have just fitted 19's to mine & the boys fitted up the Pro-kit for me but the wheel aligner will only do standard ride height.
So i'll take this down to the local guy for an alignment next week.

Cheers,
Jamie
 
My allignment issue

Thanks for posting this up James, lots of good info.
I have just fitted 19's to mine & the boys fitted up the Pro-kit for me but the wheel aligner will only do standard ride height.
So i'll take this down to the local guy for an alignment next week.

Cheers,
Jamie




Hey James I have a little situation that I think you can answer for me. I installed my first Aftermarket suspension on my GTI 2008 2door.It was an autotech clubsport suspension and after that I did an allignment check,and this is what I got



camber -1.1 -0.8
caster 7.3 7.5
toe 0.05 -0.14

after this I installed a couple of weeks later koni yellows with supersports h&r and few days later someone hit me very light on the front passenger rim (like I said very light) and after that I did an allignment to see if everything was okay and I got less caster on the right side than on the left side but the camber or the toe didnt change at all. Is it possible that just the caster could it moved from the hit? or the camber and caster have to move in the same time,because I doubt it that there would be such a big difference from just swapping a different suspension. Here are the before and after with the koni and h&r springs after the light hit on the passenger side.


right after the hit:Thebefore allignment

Camber-Left front -0.54 right front -0.50

Caster-left front 7.21 right front 6.58

toe-left front -0.15 right front -0.14

total toe -0.29

steer ahead 0.00

left rear camber -1.36 right rear -1.42

left rear toe 0.05 right rear -0.18


total toe -0.23

thrust angle 0.06


This is after the allignment was done and the caster could not be changed:


Left front Camber-0.58 right front-0.52

Left front Caster7.21 right front 6.58

left front toe 0.06 right front 0.06


total toe 0.11

steer ahead 0.00



Left rear camber -1.37 right rear -1.44

left rear toe 0.04 right rear 0.03


total toe 0.07

thrust angle 0.01




sry,this supposed to be for james lol
 

saad

Go Kart Champion
where are the pics...
 

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
VW85,

That much change in caster is unusual. It appears that there may be some accident damage with a slightly bent strut or lower control arm.

Some time ago, when I owned a Mitsubishi Lancer, had a similar problem. I ran over a traffic island driving out of a driveway. Due to the island being about 1 foot wide, the front right chassis slammed onto the elevated concrete section. Wheel alignment couldn't fix the problem, so I purchased a front right lower control arm from the wreckers (Mitsubishi Lancers were good for spare parts second hand). The new second hand lower control arm fixed the problem, but not entirely. Had front Caster (I think) adjusted to max, but vehicle was never the same again.

So what the reason you swaped suspension kits?

Cheers.
WJ
 
VW85,

That much change in caster is unusual. It appears that there may be some accident damage with a slightly bent strut or lower control arm.

Some time ago, when I owned a Mitsubishi Lancer, had a similar problem. I ran over a traffic island driving out of a driveway. Due to the island being about 1 foot wide, the front right chassis slammed onto the elevated concrete section. Wheel alignment couldn't fix the problem, so I purchased a front right lower control arm from the wreckers (Mitsubishi Lancers were good for spare parts second hand). The new second hand lower control arm fixed the problem, but not entirely. Had front Caster (I think) adjusted to max, but vehicle was never the same again.

So what the reason you swaped suspension kits?

Cheers.
WJ




I had a clunk noise that I thought it was unusual,but when I put the second kit it had the same noise,so what are you suggesting for me to change first? Control arm or the strut?
 

Blue.:R32

Ready to race!
Location
Brisbane
How much does the alignment settings differs between a gti and a R32?

I just got the pss10 installed (pics later). And the alignment setting below:

Front Axle:
Toe: L+0.3mm R+0.2mm
Camber: L-1.13 R-0.87
Caster: L+6.99 R+7.21

Rear Axle:
Toe: L+1.6mm R+1.6mm
Camber: L-1.62 R-1.74

My feeling is that the rear camber have reached it's max adjustment and they had to compensate using more toe. While the camber is till to much I think. This is possibly due to the suspension being set too low.

I'm thinking letting the pss10 settles a bit first (a few thousand km's?). Then go back and readjust my ride height to reduce some of that camber.

Coming from a rwd s15, I have no idea what an ideal alignment setting is for the R32. Based on how I feel the car drives, I think:

Front:
Toe: 0mm both side
Camber: -1.0 both sides
Castor: +7 both sides

Rear:
Toe: +0.5mm both side
Camber: -1.25 both sides
 

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
I had a clunk noise that I thought it was unusual,but when I put the second kit it had the same noise,so what are you suggesting for me to change first? Control arm or the strut?

Hard to say without looking at the parts. Best to take the vehicle to a mechanic that is very familiar with the MKV; that way they will be able to easier diagnose any warped or contorted suspension parts.

The clunking noise is probably 'tug'n'release'. That's why I went with KW coilovers - spring bind & tug'n'release are not an issue with KW kits (may not apply to KW Strut Springs though). See suspension review thread for more on tug'n'release ... its a real problem for the MKV.

BlueR32: Camber on a stock Golf is generally:

Front - zero or dead plumb.
Rear - minus - 1 degree.

Toe on Golf is generally:
Front - zero or dead plumb/straight.
Rear - Toe inwards 0.5 to 1mm.

Generally a drop of 20mm in ride height should induce -1 degree of camber at front and require some toe-in at front to preserve tyre wear on longer straight freeway trips. Same with rear. Generally toe inwards at the rear aids higher speed stability - toe out in the rear may make the vehicle unstable at higher speed i.e. lane changes.

Cheers.
WJ
 

KWICKS

Now older and wiser
Location
Around
Car(s)
GTI, Liberty 3.0RB
This is my first read of this post. I have nothing but prasie for Jobson's Taren Point Bridgestone too. A mate used to work there as an apprentice over a decade ago,, and our histroy dates that far, although I live far out of the area now. Have bought tyres from them, they put GT Gas Monroe shocks and King Springs in my first car (Bluebird TR-X!), and our last meeting was a year ago when driving by I got a flat from a nail, which they removed for free and trye was fione to keep using.
 
I am confused

I cannot believe this!!!,I went to another allignment shop (not the $tealership and my caster now is left 7.4 right 7.5 and I told them to double check and everything!!! Is it possible that the dealer could if messed up and not do the allignment properly? They charged me 189$ Should I go back or how do I know for sure which one is telling me the right numbers. Here's the complete results.


left front camber -0.8 right front -1.0
left caster 7.4 right front 7.5
left toe 0.04 right front 0.32




rear left camber -1.6 rear right 1.8
rear left toe 0.17 rear right -0.04













Hard to say without looking at the parts. Best to take the vehicle to a mechanic that is very familiar with the MKV; that way they will be able to easier diagnose any warped or contorted suspension parts.

The clunking noise is probably 'tug'n'release'. That's why I went with KW coilovers - spring bind & tug'n'release are not an issue with KW kits (may not apply to KW Strut Springs though). See suspension review thread for more on tug'n'release ... its a real problem for the MKV.

BlueR32: Camber on a stock Golf is generally:

Front - zero or dead plumb.
Rear - minus - 1 degree.

Toe on Golf is generally:
Front - zero or dead plumb/straight.
Rear - Toe inwards 0.5 to 1mm.

Generally a drop of 20mm in ride height should induce -1 degree of camber at front and require some toe-in at front to preserve tyre wear on longer straight freeway trips. Same with rear. Generally toe inwards at the rear aids higher speed stability - toe out in the rear may make the vehicle unstable at higher speed i.e. lane changes.

Cheers.
WJ
 

Vagabond

Great Teutonic Invention
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
2009 S3 Sportback
Slight thread hijack here.....I'm planning on swapping wheels"

Going from the OEM S3 rims: (18 x 7.5 et54) to to my BBS CH's: (18 x 8 et50)

but will be putting the current tyres on the BBS rims.

Q - do you think I would need a wheel alignment for such a small change?
 

GTI_SS

illektronik
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
APR Edition 30 GTI M
James,

On Saturday morning I had a wheel alignment done and I thought I'd share the output of it. Wondering what your take on it is. NB: These are 19" wheels with 235/35/19.

Was slightly perplexed by variance in wheel caster on both front and rear wheels. I also have a pre-alignment output I can scan too.

The same workshop performed the last alignment (had them do one when after they installed my sway as I could feel it was out), however my WALK was installed and it needed readjusting.

GTI_SS_19'WA_LR.jpg
 

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Vagabond: Wheel alignment should not be neccessary ... wheel balance will be required.
GTI_SS: Odd to see 50 minutes (almost 1 degree) difference in caster from side to side. Whiteline Anti-Lift Kit wouldn't have much bearing on this if the caster is out from factory ... could be a number of factors ... chassis build, how suspension is bolted to chassis, suspension arm length unequal, who's to say the problem is at the front, could be an issue with the rear affecting the front? Testimony to patchy build quality of VW. On the other hand, I doubt any car would be perfect from side to side. Difference in my caster is 7.40 (L) -v- 7.55 (R) = 15 minute difference. 50 minutes is a lot. Thought White Line Anti-Lift Kit was suposed to add 0.5 degree of negative caster (30 minutes). In that case, your GTI should be @ 8 degrees 30 minutes. Better speak to your wheel alignment specialist or Dereck @ APR. Derek @ APR (European Autotech) is good ... too far away from my home for me to use him for servicing. Nice diagram GTI_SS ... Shows set-back and all.

Cheers.
WJ
 
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