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"DSG: Stick Shift R.I.P."

StookMK5

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Austin, Tejas
Interesting article about DSG making manual trannys obsolete.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/content/11409729731880944331/index.php

"DSG: Stick Shift R.I.P."

If you were going to invent a way to control an automobile, you wouldn’t ask the average driver to develop the skill and coordination of a church organist. Note I said “average.” As far as hardcore automotive enthusiasts and skilled pipe organ players are concerned, there’s nothing more natural or satisfying than making beautiful music with a sublime dance of hands and feet. Yes, well, the average person would rather drive an automatic and download an iTune. Pistonheads and pipe worshippers may sneer, but if the majority of humans didn’t take the path of least resistance our species would still be stuck in the trees. Meanwhile, just as digital sound has invaded God’s house and rocked the organist’s world, Audi’s DSG transmission is here and tripedalists are toast.

The day F1 racing cars switched to paddle shift control, the clutch pedal was doomed. Only the system's violence kept it from a date with old Sparky. Ferrari’s ground-breaking attempts at a passenger paddler were representative rubbish; the clunky F1 system transformed the sublime F355 into a herky-jerky one-track pony. Other early systems were equally obtrusive, equally foul. At the same time, style conscious high-end manufacturers added wheel-mounted button shifts and gate activated “tip shifts.” Although the technology simply handed customers slushbox control, computers eventually transformed the systems into a reasonably convincing halfway house between mindless ease and endless excitement.

Aston's Vanquish got closer to the real deal. If drivers tapped its over-sized plus paddle at the exact right rpm, the V12 GT rewarded them with a perfectly timed gear change. If not, not. Other systems followed: Ferrari, Maserati, BMW, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, even Toyota (MR2 Spyder). All of these paddle shifters downshift magnificently-- even blipping the throttle on your behalf-- but they either slur their upchanges like a drunk handing you a cigarette or smack you in the back of the head like a sadistic schoolteacher. And that’s without considering the challenges of around town ambling or, God forbid, reverse (a non-issue for F1, obviously).

And then BorgWarner and Volkswagen AG developed DSG. The direct shift gearbox (DSG) features two wet plate clutches: one engages the odd-numbered gears, the second the even-numbered gears. When the first clutch is putting down the power, a computer readies the second clutch to engage the next gear (pre-selected according to engine revs and speed). When the driver bangs the paddle for another gear or the automatic calls for another cog, the first clutch is released and the second engages. Gear shifts are fast, smooth and accurate; both up and down the ratios. The DSG’s computer-- complete with 12 sensors-- stands guard against “inappropriate” gear selection; an over-twitchy paddle shifter can’t stall or blow up the engine.

OK rivet counters: Volksie didn’t invent the double clutch. Citroen offered something similar over 70 years ago, and Porsche’s formidable 962 racer also gave it a go. But VW and BorgWarner have just about perfected the DSG. (The only drawbacks are a certain sluggishness when gently tipping-in and a slight hesitation when paddling down more than one gear, as the DSG shuffles through the intervening ratios.) Even with its quirks, the DSG rules-- to the point where the clutch pedal and traditional manual gearbox is a mechanical redundancy, a dead device shifting. In fact, any car manufacturer who doesn’t have a DSG or something similar installed in their performance-oriented products will soon be at a tremendous disadvantage.

And here’s where the culture wars begin. Two years ago, Bob Elton’s editorial “Death to the Stick Shift” suggested that cars equipped with an automatic gearbox were safer, more reliable and more pleasurable than their manual equivalents. Enthusiasts considered the proposition a personal affront. Two years of flame mail leads me to conclude that stickshifters-- a self-selecting community of motorists who cherish the skill and pleasure that only a manual transmission can provide-- consider autoboxers less competent, safe and passionate. Many of these tripedalists will not take kindly to the DSG; it’s a bridge from the know-nothing rabble to the self-proclaimed automotive elite. The barbarians are at the shift gate; The Volkswagen Group has unlocked the door.

It will be some time before this issue plays out, but the stickshifters will lose. Once they get behind the wheel of a DSG-equipped machine like the new Audi A3 or the VW R32, even the hardiest of these manual transmission diehards will be hooked by the system’s clear superiority; in terms of speed, ergonomic ease and, most importantly of all, enjoyment. Eventually, the tide will turn. Automakers will be forced to buy "dual clutch transmission" technology from BorgWarner or their partner Getrag, or develop something at least as good. Of course, there will still be enthusiasts who stick with the stick, for personal pride and sensual satisfaction. In the meantime, a quick message from Paddle Shifters Anonymous to open-minded automotive enthusiasts: get ready for some serious fun.
 
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Bouston

FIA World Rally Car Champion
Location
Heidelberg, Germany
Car(s)
2006 Subaru STI
I have not experienced the DSG tranny yet. But I still find it hard to believe that it's more fun than a 6spd. Another example. Have you ever heard a car with a nice exhaust and it's a manual? Now compare that to how an automatic car sounds with an exhaust. The auto dosen't sound as good because there's not a break between shifts. It sounds.....boring.
 

StookMK5

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Austin, Tejas
Bouston said:
I have not experienced the DSG tranny yet. But I still find it hard to believe that it's more fun than a 6spd. Another example. Have you ever heard a car with a nice exhaust and it's a manual? Now compare that to how an automatic car sounds with an exhaust. The auto dosen't sound as good because there's not a break between shifts. It sounds.....boring.

Yep, this is just one man's opinion... I think the purists will always prefer rowing their own gears :burnrubber: :burnrubber: :burnrubber:
 

marx92x

Autocross Newbie
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I wouldn't pass judgement until you've driven a car with DSG.

Obvioulsy, I bought the the DSG, so I've already chosen sides. All I want to say is that DSG is NOT like Tiptronic or any other "Auto-stick" out there.
 

LivEToDrivE

FIA World Rally Car Newbie
Location
NOVA
Car(s)
GTI
I test drove both DSG and manual, and the DSG has that nifty little "S" for sport shifting which is a unique and exciting feature to the Automatic world, but I still choose manual, its more control, more of a race persona of driving, which I enjoy.
 

cmdrfire

FIA World Rally Car Champion
Location
UK
Confessions of a DSG addict...
Once, I too laughed at automatic cars. My dad bought a 911 Turbo Tiptronic a few years ago, and I laughed because it was not a manual box - I told myself, "I'll never own an auto box in my life."
I was into manual shifting. It was fun, it was a challenge - running the Formula Ford circuit in the UK, it was the equivalent of both conducting and playing the instruments, that moment when you passed another driver and you knew it was because of your precise, crisp gearchange, your clutchwork, your heeling-and-toeing.

I drove the DSG GTI. Just like an auto, I thought at first. Nothing special, give me that oh-so-crisp manual box any day. But then I put it into manual mode, and used the paddles properly - and discovered that I was having more fun with this than I was with a clutch.
I found that the DSG, believe it or not, gave me more control. No matter what I wanted to do, it would let me do it - and at a near instantaneous speed.
A good driver in a good car with a good manual box can perform a gearchange under a second, maybe at about 0.7s. Porsche's new tiptronic box (which, incidentally, they are abandoning for DSG) manages the gearchange at 0.4s. Ferrari's F1 system on the 612 manages the gearshift in 0.2s. The DSG in my humble GTI can do the shift in 0.08s.
It gives me the absolute control I want as well, in manual mode - it will not shift up, unless I give it the command to, and only shifts down if the revs are low enough to warrant a stall (which tends to be only at stop lights). I can take it all the way to the redline 7100RPM, if I want to. And then I touch the paddle, and less than a heartbeat later I'm back at the sweet-spot at 4800RPM and keeping going faster.

Wow, this is turning into a long post - I'll stop here, suffice to say that unless you've tried the DSG for a few hundred miles at least, you won't know it. Until you've gotten to know that paddle-shift intimitely, it'll be "just another auto". But when you know what you can do with it, what limits you can push it to - you'll never look back.

Oh, and about:
Bouston said:
The auto dosen't sound as good because there's not a break between shifts. It sounds.....boring.

Have you heard a GTI DSG? When it shifts up, there's this delightful "BOOM" as the gears change, the dump valve opens, and there's a brief, momentary blip on the throttle. Sounds completely different from the manual, and far more agressive. My friends can always tell when I'm town - it's a very unique sound.
 

Skim Diesel

Go Kart Champion
Location
Philly
I hear that. I think 6spd is just more engaging of an experience. DSG is pretty tight though. if intent is just flat out speed, it's better. Definitely in traffic.
 

Tensixty6

Old & Senile
Bouston said:
I have not experienced the DSG tranny yet. But I still find it hard to believe that it's more fun than a 6spd. Another example. Have you ever heard a car with a nice exhaust and it's a manual? Now compare that to how an automatic car sounds with an exhaust. The auto dosen't sound as good because there's not a break between shifts. It sounds.....boring.

OK, but the DSG is not an auto, it is technically a manual transmission.
 

mllr

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Wisconsin
DSG is not my bag.. But it's still awesome!

My 2002 A4 is Tiptronic and after test driving the new GTI w/DSG I could not believe the difference. Overall I'm not reconsidering buying a manual, I just enjoy a manual gearbox all too much. But! If you've not yet experienced the DSG system, get to a dealership and check it out. It is without a doubt nothing like Tiptronic.

I'm going to get a new GTI this spring, if I intended on my wife driving it DSG would be an option I'd choose.

My fast doesn't like the idea of my wife driving. :biggrin:
 

JJ-R32

Administrator
Staff member
I'll chime in here with my preference (and a video directly on-topic to this topic). I realize that DSG can shift faster than I'll ever be able to probably but like many members here I'm used to manual and like the control and involvement it makes me feel with the car.

Anyways, here's a video for the DSG fans - I uploaded a video comparing the DSG in drag races against a manual GTI, an Astra and an Integra Type-R... you'll see that DSG is the real deal - (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4042#post4042)
 

GTT

Touring Car Champion
Location
US, Chicago
JJ-R32 said:
I'll chime in here with my preference (and a video directly on-topic to this topic). I realize that DSG can shift faster than I'll ever be able to probably but like many members here I'm used to manual and like the control and involvement it makes me feel with the car.

Anyways, here's a video for the DSG fans - I uploaded a video comparing the DSG in drag races against a manual GTI, an Astra and an Integra Type-R... you'll see that DSG is the real deal - (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4042#post4042)

The question of "control" becomes a very fine line with the DSG type trans.
I did manage to get the DSG confused 1 time during my test drives, but it was more to do with not being familiar with DSG, and the placement of the controls, than anything to do with the DSG. In a manual I wouldn't have had the "studder" I had with the DSG as it tried to figure out my whacky paddle shifter commands.

Overall, a DSG type trans actually gives you back some MORE control as you can spend processing power and time on proper braking and entry speed, car balance, as well as having better grip of the steering, especially in a FWD car. RWD is more forgiving in that steering is accomplished by the front wheels that only steer while the rear wheels drive. With RWD and clutched manual's you still have decent control of the steering and it's feel, but you want your hands back on that wheel asap once the shift is done.
FWD, makes that a more intense task as the front wheels steer and drive the car.
Getting your hands back on that wheel is even more critical when charging hard.
With a clutched manual it's more a challenge, and I think a lot of drivers like that.
There is a bit more going on and it's more frenetic, thus you get this feeling of involvement.
However, I wouldn't call it "more control". In the attempt of overall vehicle balance, the DSG actually gives you more control, by letting the driver concentrate on where the car is and what it needs to be doing.

Yes, slush box auto's do give some added steering control, but they leave a lot to be desired in terms of gear selection along with speed anticipation, as the slush box doesn't really "know" what you're about to do. So, what you gain in steering control you lose in speed by the slushbox being in the wrong gear. And, let's mention the power loss exhibited by a torque converter and hi-tech fluid dynamics.

The DSG truly is amazing in that it offers the added control of not having to remove your hands from the wheel, or have them off for a shorter time. Plus, it allows better control of the braking as you don't "heel/toe" with it. The DSG truly does ask one to consider what's left with a clutched manuala trans? The only thing I can say is that the cltuched manual makes me "feel" like I'm doing something while driving, and it's giving me the impression of greater driver involvement and possibly that I may have more skill in that I can do it. But, the reality is that I just like to push and pull controls and possibly convince myself my clutched manual is better somehow, but with no explanation other than, "I feel" it's more fun.

I'm going with the DSG this time, but, mainly because I do not like the GTI's clutch pedal placement. If it had been moved just a bit more to the left, where it SHOULD be, I would be right there with the clutch pushers and gear lever shifters, moving my appendages to get braking, steering, gear selection, and throttle control under control. I guess I'm old school and it's "feels" better to me. However, in the case of this new GTI and this new DSG, this old dog may just be receptive to a new trick.
Tiptronic, sportronic, shiftronic, marketingtronic-:thumbdown:
Slushy-maticis-:thumbdown:
Proper clutched manuals-:thumbsup:
DSG-:thumbup:

TT
 

erick.s

Autocross Champion
Location
CT
I'm on the fence about this whole DSG thing. I like both but I bought the one with the clutch pedal. I think I could have been happy with the DSG, but as it is still a very new technology I was afraid that there could be problems that crop up down the road. After a few years, if it seems to be holding up and people get to put lots of miles on them without problems, then I'd be more likely to pony up. I guess I'm taking a "wait and see" perspective on this one.
 
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