A new thought re: warranty/chip!

sc0ttyb said:

Aside: I'm actually pretty curious as to how APR can encrypt their stuff and get it to work with the ECU. I wonder if it's not really so much encryption as it is obfuscation.

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I agree. To me it seems like APR would have trouble because you could just scan out the settings they have programmed in realtime. What I am wondering is if the APR program detects the presence of a scanner and automatically turns itself off to preven having their customizations detected. I'm sure its a bit more complicated than that, but somehow I dont think the ECU is performing OGR-24 encryption realtime to run the APR software :laugh: Purely speculation, however.

Either way, I suspect we'll be able to clear this up a bit in the coming weeks. gti mkv already has plans to see what he can find! :thumbup:

I thought that when the car had the APR installed they make it so the ecu only shows the same amount of flashes as when it cam from the factory? I thought they had a way to fix that.

The issue here isn't hiding the number of times the ECU has been flashed, but rather being able to compare the software of an APR-flashed ECU with the software of an original, unflashed bone-stock ECU. What I'm wondering is how this can possibly be undetectable, since both sets of software are different.

What's trying to be determined is if this alteration can be detected in any way with any dealer/service equipment, either with real-time analysis or by pulling off the code and comparing it against known VW ECU images.

My understanding of the whole flashing process is that it doesn't actually overwrite any of the factory ECU code, but rather just appends new software that alters existing settings in places relevant to performance (boost, fuel, timing, etc.).

If you guys are so concerned about warranty's why not consider the BSR tuning system developed in Sweden since 1996. Their PPC tuning system comprises a PPC unit, which once loaded with the correct map for your vehicle, can be loaded and then unloaded within minutes. When you purchase the PPC unit BSR will load the relevant map onto it for you. Once you connect it to your ODB/diagnostic port it copies the original map to the unit and then replaces your vehicles ecu map with the modified one. You can at any stage plug the unit in again and reload the stock map onto the vehicles ecu. The whole process takes only around 10mins, and is truly undetectable. The other added advantage is that you can log on to BSR website at any time and download the latest map for your vehicle and re-flash it yourself within minutes.

The PPC system for the Mk V GTI gives you 248hp / 390nm. For more info visit www.bsruk.co.uk, I believe Engstrom Racing or something like that is a certified US distributor for their products.

Details for the VAG 2.0T are as follows :

There has been a great demand for tuning for VAG’s new turbo engine 2.0T FSI/GTI (200Hp/280Nm). We now offer tuning for Golf GTI and Passat 2.0T FSI as well. The programming, which is a non-mechanical operation via the diagnostic outlet, is performed by BSR.

The new tuning software is optimized in many ways:

- Maximum power 248Hp@5000rpm and 390Nm@4000rpm
- Maximum boost pressure approx 1.1bar
- Improved runnability under all circumstances
- Reduced power when engine is cold (approx 200Hp)
- Eliminated boost pressure reduction when braking (enables to step on the gas and brake at the same time without power reduction, for example when driving on a track)
- Torque limit on the gears for best performance and reduced wheel spin

Some of the nicer features include the elimination of boost reduction under braking as well as the reduced power for when the engine is still cold. The torque limits on individual gears is also a nice feature to avoid too much wheelspin when trying to pull away quickly.

Carn, this sounds exactly like the kind of technology I was hoping to see developed. I do not doubt BSR's tuning for a second, but I would love to see other manufacturers follow suit, and it will be difficult to get this unit in the US I assume. However, you are correct, that is exactly the step in right direction I was hoping to see. Thanks for pointing it out! :thumbup:

Now lets see if we can get APR and GIAC interested in these systems.

Interesting tidbit on their site's FAQ:

Can my garage & mechanic see that my car has been tuned ?

Your local garage does not normally have the skill or equipment to read files from the ECU, to do this they have to send the ECU to Bosch or the vehicle manufacturer.

We never encourage the PPC user to cheat their garage, car salesman etc. that the car is tuned with our product. We think instead it's better to tell the truth. The PPC doesn't in any way affect servicing or fault diagnosis.

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I wonder if this is true for US dealers as well? This implies dealers really only have the ability to write raw data to the ECU, not read it. Or perhaps it implies that independant mechanics do not have the tools, but then if you are at an indep. mechanic, who is worrying about a warranty?

Here's a really simple solution that B5 S4 owners have been using for a few years.
Get another ECU and chip that.
End of problem :thumbsup:

^^^ true, very common practice in Audi world, but they are chasing crazy numbers.

gti mkv said:

i know my dealership is clueless about it, but i'm going to check it with all of my programs to see what happens

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Do me a favor and keep them clueless so that I can mod my car out like yours someday........PLEASE:thumbsup:

Correct me if I am wrong but isnt a PPC type system being developed by GIAC and REVO?

http://www.giacusa.com/flashloader_handheld.php

http://www.revotechnik.com/products/sps.aspx

Seems to me those just communicate with the program already residing in the ECU to set it back to "stock". Same problem, the program is still stored in the ECU when you are in stock mode.

Hmm... how much is a replacement ECU?

No email back from APR yet, but to be fair its a holiday weekend

NaterGator86 said:

Carn, this sounds exactly like the kind of technology I was hoping to see developed. I do not doubt BSR's tuning for a second, but I would love to see other manufacturers follow suit, and it will be difficult to get this unit in the US I assume. However, you are correct, that is exactly the step in right direction I was hoping to see. Thanks for pointing it out! :thumbup:

Now lets see if we can get APR and GIAC interested in these systems.

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It is available in the USA from Engstrom racing in Illinois I think.

http://www.engstrom.net/

The nice part of it is anyone can load the map, you don't need to take the car to someone to do it for you.

Nurendra said:

Here's a really simple solution that B5 S4 owners have been using for a few years.
Get another ECU and chip that.
End of problem :thumbsup:

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That's a great idea. ECUs for these cars probably cost around $700 and up. Also how will this affect the keyfob? Isn't their some kinda code thats linked between the original ECU and the keyfob?