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-   -   DSG - How does it work? (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140)

AM59Z2x31 02-10-2006 11:58 PM

DSG - How does it work?
 
Have a DSG GTi on order and joined site wanting to find out as much as possible befoer it arrives.
Great site and very informative.:thumbup:
My question.
In the VW advertising blurb for the DSG box it says - one gear set and clutch is engaged driving the vehicle with the second clutch having already pre-selected the next gear awating for power to be transferred. As the next gear has already been pre-selected prior to power being applied, the gear change only takes 3 - 4 100ths of a second.
This sounds fairly straight forward but how does it know which gear to pre-select or does it actually pre-select both gears?
For example if your driving in 3rd and it has 4th pre-seslected but you actually change down to 2nd then it is not as described in VWs description? Or am I missing something?:iono:

35NYR 02-11-2006 12:21 AM

Interesting question I'm curious also. If you wanna see what the DSG gears actually look like there's a video in the video thread (I think it's the review by Fifth Gear) that shows the gears.

Neimad 02-11-2006 01:45 PM

As far as I understand it, it uses various sensor inputs to determine which gear you'll most likely need. If it's wrong, then it has to pre-select the correct gear, delaying the change.

Additionally, if you were in, say 6th gear and you dropped down to 4th, it would be unable to pre-select that gear since it's on the same shaft, hence it skips to 5th temporarily, then to 4th shortly after.

The usual quotes of changes taking 0.02-0.03 seconds are best-case, based on it having pre-selected the correct gear and it being on the other shaft. If this isn't the case, gear changes may take closer to 0.4 seconds, which is still a helluva lot quicker than pretty much anyone can change a gear manually.

All the above information is taken from memory, and may not be entirely accurate

99swift99 02-11-2006 01:55 PM

Cool info never even thought about this question thanks guys.

AM59Z2x31 02-11-2006 10:39 PM

Thanks for te inf, I thought that it might be something like that but the VW info is not quite right. I suppose that the electronics "makes a guess" based on your driving stlye etc?
Any way have one on order only have to wait until June to try it out!

Tensixty6 02-12-2006 01:45 AM

Say you're in 4th gear and applying throttle, the DSG determines that you'll want 5th. If you're in 4th and you take your foot off the throttle, it will assume you want to drop back to 3rd. I think that's how it works.

Here is an extract from a word document l found somewhere on the DSG.

"At a basic level DSG is a dual-clutch electronically controlled transmission that can be shifted manually via the shift lever or paddles on the steering wheel or it can be dumped into drive and used like an automatic - there is no clutch pedal. DSG utilizes 2 clutches, 2 main input shafts and 2 sets of gears - 1st, 3rd, 5th and Reverse on one shaft and 2nd, 4th, and 6th on the other. Because this is a wet system, there is an oil cooler and oil filter attached to the transmission.

DSG is completely different from BMW's SMG and Ferrari's F1 system in that it has two clutches instead of one. This means that DSG can fire off an upshift in .008 seconds whereas BMW's SMG takes .8 seconds to make the same shift.

Here's how it works (try to stay with us here): At a stop, the transmission drops into neutral. When you start to lift your foot off the brake, the clutch connected to input shaft 1 will smoothly engage moving the car forward much like a manual transmission except electronically and automatically. Input shaft 1 is now controlling first gear providing power to the wheels. While input shaft 1 is in first, input shaft two has selected 2nd gear in anticipation of the next upshift. When the transmission requests 2nd gear (either via the paddles, gate or automatically) clutch one opens up and clutch two engages in as quickly as .008 seconds. There is a certain amount of slippage in the clutches to ensure a smooth transition from gear to gear. In the event of a downshift, the transmission will request a throttle blip from the engine ECU to match revs and then shift down a gear - this happens in as quick as .6 seconds including the throttle matching. The transmission can even shift from 6th to 2nd gear without having to sequentially run down through every gear. In this case, DSG will switch input shafts from 6th gear going to 5th temporarily on input shaft 2 and then into 2nd with input shaft 1 while blipping the throttle to match revs - all in less than .9 seconds."

I hope that helps.

Tensixty6 02-12-2006 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM59Z2x31
Thanks for te inf, I thought that it might be something like that but the VW info is not quite right. I suppose that the electronics "makes a guess" based on your driving stlye etc?
Any way have one on order only have to wait until June to try it out!

Where and when did you order your car?

cmdrfire 02-12-2006 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tensixty6
Say you're in 4th gear and applying throttle, the DSG determines that you'll want 5th. If you're in 4th and you take your foot off the throttle, it will assume you want to drop back to 3rd. I think that's how it works.

Here is an extract from a word document l found somewhere on the DSG.

"At a basic level DSG...

Cool, thanks for the info! :thumbsup: I was vaguely aware of how DSG worked (two clutches, two shafts, gears divided into odd and even, and predicted-change based on a fuzzy logic processor) but this is really informative :-D so thanks:thumbup:
Still have to play with the launch control... :burnrubber: (just wanted to use that emote really)

kosmo6 02-13-2006 08:23 PM

The DSG is truly sweet. Good to know that it doesn't have to run through all the gears sequentially.

AM59Z2x31 02-14-2006 05:36 AM

Ordered DSG GTi on 3 Jan this year from South Yarra VW. I have been asking for a firm delivery date ever since. Told it would be May/June when I first ordered it . About two weeks ago when I rang was told June/July. Delivery time seems to be slipping out.
I am a bit worried as I have heard that the whole 2006 allotment has been ordered and that if you order one now you have a 12 month wait.
So all you people complaining about a 12 - 14 week wait just think of the poor b*****ds in Australia that have a 12 month wait!

GTi Fanatic 02-14-2006 05:55 AM

WOW, after reading this I have slightly toyed with the thought of getting DSG...
it seems like such a great system and probably alot of fun, but it is just too much fun to have a manual.

i will test drive a dsg and see what i think after that.

thanks for the info

Tensixty6 02-15-2006 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM59Z2x31
Ordered DSG GTi on 3 Jan this year from South Yarra VW. I have been asking for a firm delivery date ever since. Told it would be May/June when I first ordered it . About two weeks ago when I rang was told June/July. Delivery time seems to be slipping out.
I am a bit worried as I have heard that the whole 2006 allotment has been ordered and that if you order one now you have a 12 month wait.
So all you people complaining about a 12 - 14 week wait just think of the poor b*****ds in Australia that have a 12 month wait!

I ordered my GTi on the 3rd December 2005. VW Australia advised me today that it will be built in July and delivery will be September. 9 bloody long months.

AM59Z2x31 02-15-2006 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tensixty6
I ordered my GTi on the 3rd December 2005. VW Australia advised me today that it will be built in July and delivery will be September. 9 bloody long months.

Tensixty6
I wonder if my dealer was giving me a build date rather than a delivery date?
Who did you talk to in VW Aus and what info do they need to get a build and delivery date? I might try calling them.
What options did you order as this can also affect the build time?
I only ordered DSG as I did not want Leather, sat nav, sun roof or Xenons.

Could it also depend on the dealer and the allotment they get and/or how fast they are selling them?

I am a bit p****d about waiting till June/July I feel sorry for you having to wait until September. Although bloody nice car and probably well worth the wait.

Sauceboy01 02-15-2006 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tensixty6
I ordered my GTi on the 3rd December 2005. VW Australia advised me today that it will be built in July and delivery will be September. 9 bloody long months.

You might as well wait for an 07 at that point no? :iono:

Tensixty6 02-17-2006 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM59Z2x31
Tensixty6
I wonder if my dealer was giving me a build date rather than a delivery date?
Who did you talk to in VW Aus and what info do they need to get a build and delivery date? I might try calling them.
What options did you order as this can also affect the build time?
I only ordered DSG as I did not want Leather, sat nav, sun roof or Xenons.

Could it also depend on the dealer and the allotment they get and/or how fast they are selling them?

I am a bit p****d about waiting till June/July I feel sorry for you having to wait until September. Although bloody nice car and probably well worth the wait.

I spoke to customer relations....1800 060 936. I gave them my Commission Build number which l got off Barloworld Glen Waverley in January.

Ive ordered Tornado Red with DSG, Sunroof and SatNav.

I'm very disappointed with the delay. When l first ordered it, the comment was...."worst case scenario, May". I know the dealer has no control over it but l fail to see that a five month delay can blow out to 9 months so quickly.

GTi Crow 02-17-2006 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tensixty6
I ordered my GTi on the 3rd December 2005. VW Australia advised me today that it will be built in July and delivery will be September. 9 bloody long months.

Look on the bright side (possibly) VW normally do their upgrades in July, so cars built then will have 07 specs - this could be good or bad depending on the changes. The changes from the 05 to 06 version was about 50-50 IMO, although none really worried me.

The wait is worth it although very frustrating - no really the wait is a pain in the a**e, but it goes quick enough. :mad:

AM59Z2x31 02-17-2006 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tensixty6
I spoke to customer relations....1800 060 936. I gave them my Commission Build number which l got off Barloworld Glen Waverley in January.

Ive ordered Tornado Red with DSG, Sunroof and SatNav.

I'm very disappointed with the delay. When l first ordered it, the comment was...."worst case scenario, May". I know the dealer has no control over it but l fail to see that a five month delay can blow out to 9 months so quickly.

Thanks, I'll get my Commission build number and chase them up.

Tensixty6 02-19-2006 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTi Crow
Look on the bright side (possibly) VW normally do their upgrades in July, so cars built then will have 07 specs - this could be good or bad depending on the changes. The changes from the 05 to 06 version was about 50-50 IMO, although none really worried me.

The wait is worth it although very frustrating - no really the wait is a pain in the a**e, but it goes quick enough. :mad:

As you say, "this could be good or bad, depending on the changes". The trouble is, if l end up with a MY07 car, and it seems likely l will, what happens if VW makes a change that l don't like?

So yes, it could work two ways. At the end of the day, l think l'd prefer to get just what l ordered, no more....no less.

GTI DSG Freude am Fahren 02-19-2006 09:51 AM

DSG itīs really a DREAM :bow: :bow: :bow:
I have never driven before a better system (better than any BMW SMG). Since I got it I just love to cruise in "D", it sporty and comfortable at one time. For example driving in down town in 6th gear, want to pass the traffic light before it turns, foot down (kickdown) an it shifts in 2nd gear, makes great noise and off you go! Try this with a manuel gear box. Itīs a beautiful system :wub:
I tried an Subaru Impreza WRX STI down town and it doesnīt make so much fun as the GTI DSG. Itīs just perfect. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Bouston 02-19-2006 10:04 AM

You downshift from 6th to 2nd :confused: ? That dosen't sound like it's good for the tranny. Or is it safe?

cmdrfire 02-19-2006 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTI DSG Freude am Fahren
DSG it´s really a DREAM :bow: :bow: :bow:
I have never driven before a better system (better than any BMW SMG). Since I got it I just love to cruise in "D", it sporty and comfortable at one time. For example driving in down town in 6th gear, want to pass the traffic light before it turns, foot down (kickdown) an it shifts in 2nd gear, makes great noise and off you go! Try this with a manuel gear box. It´s a beautiful system :wub:
I tried an Subaru Impreza WRX STI down town and it doesn´t make so much fun as the GTI DSG. It´s just perfect. :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've got one of the first production DSG GTIs built, I've had it over a year now and put just about 26k miles on the clock thus far, and I'm enjoying it more and more every day. As I learn more about what the DSG is really capable of, the car is increasingly taken to its limits (always safely and responsibly :biggrin: ) and my enjoyment and appreciation of the car and what VW have done just keeps growing.

JJ-R32 02-28-2006 03:47 AM

I've uploaded a video drag gracing a DSG GTI against a manual GTI, an Astra and an Integra Type-R... check it out!

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showth...=4042#post4042


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